Is doing a zandronum speed demo frowned upon?

I really want to get into doing speed demos but currently I use zandronum/gzdoom. Looking through DSDA I see that most use prboom. However prboom does not seem to be compatiable with 64-bit machines as the download says that it is for win32. So I was wondering if it would be ok to use gzdoom or zandronum to do the demos. It was just the fact that everyone uses prboom, would I get frowned upon and ousted out :(

I would be very happy for any suggestions of what to do(negative or positive,I can except it).

Thanks
Driftyloon

I use PrBoom+ on a 64-bit machine. And honestly, I don't ever watch GZDoom/Zandronum runs, having to say I don't even have those doom ports installed. So yes, I frown upon GZDoom demos.

PrBoom-Plus works fine on my Windows 7 x64. It's the best sourceport for demo recording / playing; ZDoom-based ports can't even play normal Doom demos.

Yes, the critical disadvantage of ZDoom based ports is that their demos are incompatible with classic ports, in fact they are incompatible even between different version of these ports, and that's why they're generally not used for demo recording.

All fixed! I am now running PrBoom+. Thanks ClumsyDoomer, I knew not of this version of PrBoom but I have it all up and running and ready to record some speed demos :)

I don't see an issue with using ZDoom for demo recording. Just realize most people won't watch your runs and if you beat a run then people will probably ignore it, but that doesn't mean you can't run on it. IMO a good run is a good run even on zdoom.

Using (G)Zdoom to record demos makes sense only on (CASE A) (G)Zdoom-only maps, i.e. those in Hexen/UDMF format, with scripts, slopes, polyobjects etc. For various reasons, there aren't many such demos. The reasons include:

· (G)Zdoom gameplay is a moving target, there are no real standards set in stone, like in vanilla- and Boom-compatible ports. Every new version introduces changes to it - some subtle, some not - and new versions come out at least twice a year. It's like a box of chocolates, a different one every time. Cool for the developers and most of the user base, anathema to purist and demo recorders (the two largely overlap without being one and the same)

· Thanks to the above, demos recorded with one version will usually desync with another. AFAIK, the introduction of Doom (Strict) and Boom (Strict) compatflag schemes didn't change that picture. Having to keep the sheer number of versions required to play various existing demo (not counting the potential future ones) on your HD and have them organized in a system is another major obstacle.

· User-friendliness (the logical consequence of the previous point): CMD line with file/directory juggling vs. one click in Windoze Explorer or from within the demo ZIP in Prb+

· (G)Zdoom demos are a lot more desync-prone, often for ridiculous reasons, e.g. switch from fullscreen to windowed - desync; record with the special HUD, play back without - desync; and so on. Even bringing up the menu during playback caused desync last time I recorded (a few years ago). Ergo, (G)Zdoom demos are a Pain In The Ass.

· Demo functionality is severely limited compared to Prboom-plus - you can't change playback speed, skip to an aribitrary point in the demo or a specific map in a multi-level demo, pause, use chasecam or freecam, or quickly generate demo stats like "-levelstat" does, etc.

· No demo tool that I know of supports (G)Zdoom demos, thus no analysis, stats generation or TAS (the absence of the latter can be considered an advantage in some situations, though).

(G)Zdoom maps are often single-use wonders - play through once, get amazed and find that you have no desire to replay it. Such maps don't lend themselves to demo recording very well.

There are many non-(G)Z-specific maps that claim to be vanilla/limit-removing/Boom-compatible but are not because their authors designed and tested them in (G)Zdoom (CASE B). Recording on them with (G)Zdoom is the easy way out, though. It's much better in the long run to record in demo-centric engine and provide a map fix along with your demo. These fixes can be hosted by DSDA alongside the originals and make playback and future recordings easy as one-two-three. That's what I did with XENUSREV and Hellcore 2.0 MAP03.

Does this answer your question? Or do you need more details? ;)

TL;DR: recording with (G)Zdoom is a waste of time and space. Use Prb+ (vanilla/limit-removing/Boom WADs) or Chocolate Doom (vanilla only) instead.

And now getcho ass to the blackboard and write "I will never confuse Prboom and Prboom-plus again" 100 times. :D

edit: spelling

Very good post, N_A. As for case B example, I liked that Kraflab recorded his Eviltech demos in ZDoom. This mapset is a bit too problematic for PrBoom+. I forgot to mention that before, so here it is.

Yeah, I've seen Kraftlab's demopak (though not the demo themselves, yet) and was disappointed it was Zdoom-only. The WAD looks interesting, so it's probably worth the hassle of adding another Zdoom version to the nine (!) I have installed already. I wish he had followed my Case B recommendation, but seeing "burn out" mentioned in the demo textfile and having played a few maps myself I can understand why he didn't.

Perhaps we should try and convince Nicholas Monti to rechannel his energy from Favillesco into making a genuinely compatible version of Eviltech? :P Don't count on me, though, I'm going to be busy with Armadosia for a while yet.

It's cool to record Zdoom demos... for Zdoom maps. But even then most people won't do it, because it's like building sand castles on a beach. The high tide of a new version will inevitably undo your hard work sooner or later. My most favourite example is this: Go here and watch the demos. All of them, no giving up. Then tell me how many years older you feel.

Uploading or streaming videos is a partial solution, but that's hardly permanent or analyzable enough.

For ZDoom maps that don't use very complicated features or simply "limit removing" wads with zdoomisms maybe try ZDaemon, which is very strict about demo compatibility and also has awesome watching features like rewind and free spectator with freelook and everything. You can't record offline though but if you set up a server and connect to it your ping will be 10-20 so it shouldn't be very troublesome. And you can playback ZDaemon demos by double clicking on them like in prboom-plus.

Oh, and you can't record with the current version because it's still in a beta-testing phase, so use the 1.09 exe for recording.

Example of a ZDaemon speed demo: http://doomedsda.us/lmps/765/2/rq13c020.zip

Interesting.

ZDD seems to have over 30X the data rate of a vanilla LMP, cf. this Choco demo that is also 2-player coop and only one second shorter.

Your ZDD is ~10,393 bytes/sec
My LMP is ~340 bytes/sec

Should your recommendation be taken up by the recording masses, will you take up convincing the admins to raise attachment size 30X? ;)

Yeah, the increased size is the price you have to pay for rewind and other cool stuff.

I don't think demos neccesarily need to be attached as long as Andy is willing to host them on DSDA.

Btw wasn't there also some modified prboom that had demos with rewind too? Forgot what it was called.

I tried setting up a Zdaemon server and recording on Armadosia MAP07.
Ugh. I think I'd rather give up Prb+ and Choco and record exclusively with Zdoom than have to do anything with Zdaemon again.

Memfis said:

Btw wasn't there also some modified prboom that had demos with rewind too? Forgot what it was called.

Yeah, I seem to remember reading something about it in this very forum too, about 10 years ago. IIRC it didn't actually record such demos, you had to process them with another util, and the filesize of the final product was not far behind a DivX video.