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IMJack

One Nation, NOT Under God, Indivisible

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Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave

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Well it seemed strange to hear everyone moaning at having to hear or say the pledge, but are happy to hear that sung at every sports meeting, political rally, etc

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AndrewB said:

Nowhere in the constitution does it say that "establishment of religion" refers to nothing but organizations.

Nowhere in the constitution does it say that the "establishment of religion" refers to things other than organizations. I'm just going off the definition of the word. Now, if you'd care to debate Webster, I'm sure I could point you to a wonderful piece of reference literature we call the "dictionary".

DC

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fodders said:

Well it seemed strange to hear everyone moaning at having to hear or say the pledge, but are happy to hear that sung at every sports meeting, political rally, etc

I can honestly say I have never heard those words sung at any sports game or any other event where the "Star Spangled Banner" was played. They only ever sing/play the first verse.

Oh! Say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hail by the twilight's light gleaming
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there
Oh say does that star-spangled baner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Ironically enough, written by a prisoner being held on a British warship while the Brits were bombarding Fort Henry. This is the song of a nation in the crosshairs. And as many of such songs of its day, the tune was ripped from a Brit drinking song. Because the early Americans hated you bastards so much, they would do anything to spite you. :)

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Let the heathens remove "under God" if they so will it. They have no idea what placing themselves "under God" really means, for they cannot see past their own selfishness into the the true nature of their deparvity, but by this act they shall only store up more wrath against themselves in eternity.

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Undamned said:

Let the heathens remove "under God" if they so will it. They have no idea what placing themselves "under God" really means, for they cannot see past their own selfishness into the the true nature of their deparvity, but by this act they shall only store up more wrath against themselves in eternity.

I WILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY o_O

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ROFL

Anyway, I think its really fucking sad that people are now denying service to atheists. Like one instance in Seattle where a man is refusing to sell cars to atheists, or adding $10,000 to the sticker price. I hope this doesn't spread.

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Undamned, that is exactly the kind of uncaring attitude that gives the rest of us with a belief in Christ a bad name. Show some compassion, and attempt to think around both sides of the issue.

As for denying service to atheists, I think that's just plain sad. I may not agree with the fact that someone believes differently than I do, but that doesn't make them any more or less a human being. Unless, of course, they are lawyers, in which case believing differently from me doesn't make them any more or less spore-based.

DC

P.S. Couching your phrases in medieval phraseology and language doesn't work unless A) all your words are spelled correctly and B) your grasp of human nature (particularly the areas of retribution and spite) exceeds that of a retarded four year old.

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This individual has named themself:
Undamned

Are you so certain?

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This so-called "undamned" will find himself in for a nasty surprise if he wakes up in Hell.

I wouldn't mind these people if they had been brought up to respect other religions and other people in general, but no, they just have to go the way of the stupid and say that "everyone who doesn't believe in our God shall be punished".

Yeah right.

I'm tempted to say that religious fundamentalists are the root of all evil - but it's not true.

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Undamned said:

Let the heathens remove "under God" if they so will it. They have no idea what placing themselves "under God" really means, for they cannot see past their own selfishness into the the true nature of their deparvity, but by this act they shall only store up more wrath against themselves in eternity.

Just remember, mewse love you always.

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Thank you, dsm. At least somebody else realizes that it's not the fault of the belief, but the shortsightedness of the people practicing it.

DC

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Doom-Child said:

Thank you, dsm. At least somebody else realizes that it's not the fault of the belief, but the shortsightedness of the people practicing it.

DC

wrong, PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE BLAMED FOR the worlds problems, the SYSTEMS under wich they live under and curruption of the BELIFS they hold are the root of the problem.

Bring an end to the bigot, a few people are less annoyed with the world. Bring an end to the system that made the bigot, end bigotry

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Xian said:

Bring an end to the system that made the bigot, end bigotry

Let's burn some unbelievers

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Xian said:

wrong, PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE BLAMED FOR the worlds problems, the SYSTEMS under wich they live under and curruption of the BELIFS they hold are the root of the problem.

Bring an end to the bigot, a few people are less annoyed with the world. Bring an end to the system that made the bigot, end bigotry

That much is true, but no matter how different on the surface each one has been EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY that has existed for the last 4000 years has focused on shovelling 95% of the wealth into 5% of the population. Every single one.

If you put enough morality, honesty and justice into any society the results would be amazing. Because, of course, there never really has been a group of people that were moral, honest and just. =P

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deadnail said:

That much is true, but no matter how different on the surface each one has been EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY that has existed for the last 4000 years has focused on shovelling 95% of the wealth into 5% of the population. Every single one.

If you put enough morality, honesty and justice into any society the results would be amazing. Because, of course, there never really has been a group of people that were moral, honest and just. =P

And misanthropy becomes the only option of the righteous.

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Little Faith said:

And misanthropy becomes the only option of the righteous.

Damn right I distrust all men and I have a 22 year long running history of reason after reason why I should distrust all of humanity.

Look, anything can look good on paper.

The fact is, the more people you involve on a project the more likely it's going to be bastardized because at heart all men are greedy. That's a fact. That's why capitalism will always be corrupt and communism will always fail miserably, the simple fact that humans are running the show.

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Xian said:

wrong, PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE BLAMED FOR the worlds problems, the SYSTEMS under wich they live under and curruption of the BELIFS they hold are the root of the problem.

Bring an end to the bigot, a few people are less annoyed with the world. Bring an end to the system that made the bigot, end bigotry

So, your idea is that people have no free will? How does the fact that I adhere to a socially unpopular system of belief contribute to my character unless I make a conscious decision? People caused the world's problems, why shouldn't they be blamed for them? You're assuming that everyone who adheres to a system of belief does so for the same reasons and is affected in exactly the same ways.

The Few Are The Same As The Whole
Example: One person killed another. No one did anything to stop him. Therefore, all people condone murder.

See how faulty that logic is?

Corrupted beliefs go a long way in a lot of cases, but I don't believe for a second that everyone that calls themself left-wing votes Democratic in every election, if you take my meaning.

As for bringing an end to a system that breeds bigotry, you have better luck teaching a duck to play chess. Every system, if overapplied or misapplied, produces bigots. I defy you to find a system that can't be distended to do so.

DC

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Once when I was a kid I threw a rock onto an anthill. The result was cool. The little ants ran about helter skelter. Some of them went round and round in circles like they were lost. Some of them crawled over, under and about the rock as if they were trying to find a way to move it. Some of them attacked each other, bit the heads off their victims and such...

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Xian said:

wrong, PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE BLAMED FOR the worlds problems, the SYSTEMS under wich they live under and curruption of the BELIFS they hold are the root of the problem.

The system was created by people, the beliefs were established by people, and people keep both the system and the beliefs maintained in power.

The only true power in human society is the individual. Individuals who develop reason and gain knowledge become powerful. Individuals who fail to develop reason and knowledge (or are denied the chance) become followers, "have-nots" who are manipulated and swayed by the "haves." But one of the beautiful things about human nature is that people who want the knowledge and the reason to use it can go and get it, despite anybody who tries to keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit. People can become better and become powerful if they really want to.

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Having read many of the posts in the thread(The whole thing? You kidding me?!) I gather that most people in the thread aren't churchgoers. That's just a generalization, but it seems most of you are at least distanced from religion by a bit.

As a result, I think you guys might have a slightly stereotyped view of people of faith, such as myself. And thinking of some commonly seen religious themes(tele-vangelists, Muslim suicide bombers, etc...) I can see where you come from.

So I'll compress all the things I want to say into this:
'Even if I'm wrong, even if another religion is correct and I go to Hell, and even if I die a virgin, I'll still believe that my religion made me a better person than I might have been otherwise. I'm not saying that I'm better than anyone else because I believe: I'm saying that I'm better than I might have been because of the values in the religion.'

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stphrz said:

Once when I was a kid I threw a rock onto an anthill. The result was cool. The little ants ran about helter skelter. Some of them went round and round in circles like they were lost. Some of them crawled over, under and about the rock as if they were trying to find a way to move it. Some of them attacked each other, bit the heads off their victims and such...

The moral of the story: a large-scale natural disaster would do wonders to society.

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Katarhyne said:

I personally think an abolishment of all religion would cause more problems than it's worth. HOWEVER...

I do think that religion is the root of the largest majority of the world's problems, both now and all throughout history. There is no scientific basis for any religion - indeed, the very basis of religion is (granted, I'm twisting things around a bit but it still holds up) the lack of scientific basis; "faith".

Strictly abolishing it wouldn't solve anything; no, it must be erased in the thoughts and hearts and minds of people over multiple generations - I fear I will not see the removal of religion from the world in my time. But I cheer to think that my children or perhaps my children's children will; surely it will be a grand day for all mankind.



P.S. - I never stood up for the pledge of allegiance either.


Most of life is based on faith, whether or not you're religious - faith that when you step out of bed you won't fly up to the ceiling, faith that people are going to drive on the correct side of the road rather than aiming at you, faith that all of the physical laws that have kept going for the past few billion years will not suddenly break down.

And I'd like to know what makes you so sure that the end of religion would be a good thing for all mankind. Religion is not only the root of many disagreements, as has already been noted - it is also the root of much art. (Hint, for you uncultured fools: THE RENAISSANCE.)

Religion isn't a good thing or a bad thing. It just is, and that's all it should be, not an excuse. I, personally, am praying for that.


[edit: Oh, and as far as the "In God We Trust" on money - I just say people should stop accepting it under the grounds that it's unconstitutional and see just how far they get. Who knows, you might manage to point out that the judge who made this decision is an IDIOT.]

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IMJack said:

Individuals who develop reason and gain knowledge become powerful. Individuals who fail to develop reason and knowledge (or are denied the chance) become followers, "have-nots" who are manipulated and swayed by the "haves." But one of the beautiful things about human nature is that people who want the knowledge and the reason to use it can go and get it, despite anybody who tries to keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit. People can become better and become powerful if they really want to.

Knowledge IS power.

Btw IMJack, there are a bunch o' people (myself included) that are trying in vain to reach you on AIM.

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dsm said:

Btw IMJack, there are a bunch o' people (myself included) that are trying in vain to reach you on AIM.

Heh, add me to that list.

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