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DooM_RO

(Over)ambitious First Map WIP. Need help! (Updated version)

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Hello guys,

Back in 2011 I thought I should give mapping a go and and have working on and off (mostly off) on a map called UAC Headquarters. So I fired up Doombuilder and started to drag some lines. After a few failures I managed to make a couple of rooms of which I am still quite proud of today and would later dictate the tenets and rules I would follow for this map such as:

-Using only vanilla resources. Doom is a game that is all about limitations and overcoming these limitations. I thought limiting myself to just vanilla resources would be beneficial to my skills. This has allowed me to find some quite inventive uses for some textures, and structures. No Zdoom features were used.

-Be conscious of these limitations, embrace them. You cannot make Doom look like a modern game and vice versa. All good maps (in my opinion) embrace what makes Doom Doom. That means lots of colors and contrasts.

-Have a strong sense of adventure and place. I love many kinds of maps but the ones I like most are the ones that imply that the place you are in is plausible (not realistic). Doom is of course not a realistic game but through clever use of visuals I think it is possible to make it look vaguely like a real place with just enough detail so that the player's imagination can still run wild.

-Use detail but be very careful about it. To make the locations feel more like real places I put in detail that helped me achieve this. I tried to be as tasteful as possible with my detailing. I have tried to avoid KDIZD-sms as much as possible and instead drew inspiration from E2M4 of Demon Eclipse, Scythe 2, Threshold of Pain 1 and 2 and E1M7 from DTWID and Doom.

-Just because it's my first map doesn't mean it has the right to suck. During the development of my map I've had at least 3 bad ideas for each good one. I've made and deleted countless rooms simply because they didn't meet my standards.

















Despite the progress I've made, it is often very slow. Most of my time making the map is spent staring blankly at the screen, not knowing what to do. I think I am pretty good at detailing (as in I think I know what and how much to apply to a room) and making stuff look good but I think the geometry of the room is far more important. I struggle at making the ACTUAL map.

Inspirations include Map 26 and 27 of Scythe 2, E3M4 of UDoom, E2M4 of Demon Eclipse, Sacrilegium Surrexit from HYMN, E1M7 from Doom and DTWID and Threshold of Pain. When I play these maps I understand how they were made and these are the kinds of maps I want to make but whenever I want to make something similar my brain just shuts off. Ocassionally I get a really good sense of what I am supposed to do and I hammer a section complete with detailing and gameplay in quite quickly. For example I made this part of the map in just one or two days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWCD2pkZtDM and the whole parts of the map that contain the yellow and red keys were made in just a week and a few days...even though they are not finished at all and still look and play very rough.

I made this post because I am fucking burnt out and I urgently need feedback and new mapping techniques. I wish there were some exercises for designing layouts, like practicing scales for music. At the moment, the map is really really big but I really want this map to be something I can be proud of. There is no turning back, I have to finish it.

I am also considering splitting the techbase part and the hell part in two maps...but I need input from you guys for that. The reason why they are not separate maps is because I wanted my map to have a sense of adventure and continuity like the more you advance the worse it becomes until you enter hell itself.

I have been thinking about sharing the map for some time but was initially apprehensive about it because while I would REALLY appreciate your help this needs to be 100% my map. I really want this to be something I can be proud of.

If you want to prove a point you may modify parts of it for demonstration. Of course, you may not distribute it outside this thread.

Expect to find yourself in a room with interesting visuals and gameplay now and then a bland hallway with misaligned textures and halls of mirrors everywhere in the next. I know about these issues. What I want to know is how I should proceed with my map, what are the good and bad parts of it and how to make rooms more interesting (if I have to). Some doors are also not opening for some reason. I really don't know why but most of them have been raised so you can get through them. You will need to use noclip to get through the yellow door.

Huge sections of the map (that are also quite finished) are also not connected to the actual map either so you will have to use Doombuilder or Noclip to access them

Above all, PLEASE respect my work. Don't be an asshole and please try to be constructive. I have spent a lot of time on this and I am willing to do anything to make it a good map so please help me.

The map was made for Doom and the slot is E1M7.

UPDATE:

Hey guys, I've made quite a bit of progress on my maps in the last months (at least for my very slow standards) but still feel like I need constructive criticism and guidance. I really want this map to be the best it can be.

At the moment, the part containing the BLUE keycard is around 85-90% finished, the one containing the YELLOW card is about 30% (and is the one I feel really stuck at), the one containing the RED keycard about 60% and finally the last area maybe 75%.

Constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind that some rooms are very unfinished and barebones (because I don't know what to do with them)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f3csltj362mg1i6/UAC%20Headquarters.wad?dl=0

The second map set in Hell is around 30% complete.

As a reminder, the maps are for DOOM and the levels are E1M7 and E1M8.

Although it uses only vanilla stuff I highly recommend using Smooth Doom with it.

KEEP IN MIND THIS IS MY FIRST MAP! Don't be TOO harsh and please don't be an asshole.

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I think a map of this size would burn out anyone. There's some really nice bits in it, but it's almost half an episode or more by itself.

My advice would be to shelf this map for the time being. Take what you've learnt from building it, and build one small simple map.

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Thank you for the feedback.

It's definitely not as big as a whole episode (or even half) but it is as big as one of the last maps of a megawad. Seems like I bit more than I could chew...sigh.

I can do this though, it's just that I'd like it to go smoother.

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When I get stuck, I often play through other peoples' wads to get some ideas. I can see you've listed a number of inspirations already, but one additional suggestion would be Mechadon's Vela Pax beta. He has similarly huge, non-linear maps that have an excellent level of detail, and most areas look distinctive enough that you don't tend to get lost too easily.

You may also want to take a look at Eternal Doom, which is an entire megawad of massive levels. Most of them are medieval themed, but there are a number of tech maps in there as well.

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I had a quick look. Lots of really nice ideas here, stuff I haven't seen much before. Your map is suffering from a bad case of unclosed sectors which is causing the HOMs, might want to sort that out sooner rather than later.

If you want to practice your skills before working on something this size, why not try creating some 2048x2048 maps? This limits your available mapping area and allows you to create playable maps within the space of days rather than months.

By the way, the yellow door isn't working because one of the adjacent sectors has a ceiling at the same height of the door. When a door rises, it will stop at the lowest ceiling of all adjacent sectors.

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Thank you guys! I'm not sure why but I'm having one of those moments again. I've just hammered out two more rooms complete with detail and encounters in the red key area. I'm going to finish this one way or another...the map is about 60% complete. Going to post the new version pretty soon, just need to iron out some things.

Great idea, Surreily. Making 1024 maps seems like an excellent way to practice mapping. What about the other doors that are not opening? I really need to fix them.

In the meantime I would definitely appreciate more feedback.

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You've recently requested feedback on this map in another thread. OK. The map crashes PrBoom-plus upon startup. You should decide what the intended compatibility is (vanilla? / limit-removing? / Boom? / ZDoom?), clearly state it, and ensure it actually works in the port/exe when you claim it should. So, what is the intended compatibility?

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Well it was initially designed for Vanilla but it stopped loading in vanilla after a while...I assume it's because it's so big. It doesn't use any zdoom features or new graphics. Zdoom is my default Doom exe so I thought everything would be able to run it if zdoom did.

I don't really understand how ports/exes work. I've been dooming for 5 years and all I ever needed was zdoom/gzdoom.

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(G)ZDoom has incompatible with vanilla game logic, use PrBoom+ or GLBoom+ with command line "-complevel 2" instead, to make sure it will work in any limit-removing port.

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Vanilla maps are limited by known Static limits and a limited set of vanilla features. Chocolate Doom emulates vanilla.
Limit-removing maps remove these static limits and allow unlimited amount of detail etc. PrBoom-plus launched with -complevel 2 emulates limit-removing vanilla.
Boom format allows advanced and generalized features. PrBoom-plus launched with -complevel 9 emulates Boom.
ZDoom formats allow even more flexibility.

In addition, there are so-called "zdoomisms" - design choices that work in ZDoom, but break maps when played in less advanced ports, even though only vanilla features were used. For example, ZDoom allows you to press use through walkover lines if there's a switch behind them, but Boom and vanilla don't - so they might break, even though you've (as the author) successfully playtested them in ZDoom. Another problem is zero-tagged S1/SR/W1/WR/G1/GR activated doors or lifts - in ZDoom, the effect will be applied to the back side of the linedef, but in Boom and vanilla, all sectors with tag 0 in the entire map will be affected - unless a D1/DR door action was used. Another problem is ZDoom's tolerance to PNG graphics, imperfectly included custom textures and missing map lumps (your map crashed because it doesn't have nodes built).

That's why you should be concerned about compatibility, and properly state the lowest compatible port people should be able to play with.

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Riiight, I feel like an idiot. I barely understand half of what you said in your last post. I am going to research this issue some more but in the meantime can you just run it through Zdoom and see how the map plays?

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BlackFish said:

Nice, large map. Can't wait to see it populated.


I really appreciate the fact that you like it but I would also appreciate some criticism :)

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I took a quick peek in Doom Builder, here's some thoughts.

It looks pretty decent overall and I like the topdown look of the layout so far. Plenty of opportunity to interconnect existing areas, through progressive revisitation cross-access, or just visually (either way. these layouts degreade framerate on many machines, so backpedal a little if it starts chugging). To wrap the map up, make sure you don't overextend the amount of space you're mapping out compared to the items, weapons and power-ups available. You're likely to want each area to yield unique bonuses rather than repeating your dead-end rewards. Make sure there is a natural progression from start to end - you look to be nailing this, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. Any finished areas you have that fall outside of the start-end journey, you might want to consider making them secret.

Like the way you've marked the floors with "vertical" pathways that lead the eye naturally from one place to another. Its also cool that each area has a different style of path. Floor work is generally good, and the unique decos you've carved out fit the grungy tech atmosphere nicely. Vertical wall decoration isn't as strong throughout yet, but the best parts shine and fit nicely into the Doom E1 canon.

Misc:
- Where they fit, place out some tech pillars, trees (under ceiling holdes), lamps or other decos that tie together otherwise empty rooms.
- Don't let double large doors repeat their textures. Put a central big door on this size, and line up some metal-rivets or other 64 wide trim of choice.
- Some of the spaces are very large and wide open. For gameplay's sake you'll need stuff to dodge behind. Stacks of crates do the trick. Sector-columns too, though these sometimes reduce the aesthetics of a room, if you didn't bear them in mind when you first molded it.
- On functionality woes: Consider rebuilding sectors you can't get to work from scratch, or copy out a working example you have and fidget it into place.
- You might be at 60% now, but be forewarned that the last 90-100% stretch is often the longest one, sometimes as long as the rest of the process (including katana-hammering play balancing, and forever nitpicking the spit and polish).

Best of luck on finishing your XL map.

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@Soundblock!

Thanks a lot :)

As for the decorations, I am particularly proud of this one



It's going to be used in the Red key room, which is going to be some sort of reactor although I have no idea how to make it right now.

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Allright. I had a run on the map. Things I found:
-Pay more attention to the textures alignment (both vertical and horizontal), and on some parts of the doors there are some unpegs missing (even on some traps).
-Always regarding the doors there some larger (in width or in height) of the texture measures you used on them. In general try to use a texture that can fit well with the height/width you want or change the height/width.
-You can fall down in the that blue corridor with all the lights effect from the startan windows.
-After the bfg room there are some raised sectors as walls, if you dont plan to put stuff inside it is better to delete them (then you have to retexture them).
-In the room with all the cacos I believe you used impassable lines on the railing but they prevent the cacos to get closer to the player and then they dont represent a great threat and they ended to be my shield from the imps.
-The traps and the combat situation were always the same, after a while it starts to be predictable and made me losing interesting on playing the map. Said so you have lots of space where to create many interesting combats.
-I know its still a wip and you can clearly see what areas are unfinished but IMO: the detail was very good (maybe overdone in some parts), but if you decide to go with it you'd better do it in all the map at the same level and consistency. Since the map its very big I think it would be better to do a little less (and it will take you less time to finish the map) but this is up to you.
-It took me some time to encounter the first monster when I started; it built tension and it was very good but.. overall the map is almost empty everywhere and the unfinished rooms (at least to me) doesn't give me impression they will have different combat situation of those that I have kept see. This pretty much in all the map after reaching the outdoor area (and the keys rooms). I think decreasing the size and emphasize the layout with the interconnections (like you did very well in the first areas!) would be better. Unless you plan to do a slaughter map.
-Maybe its only me but all those lights effect were a bit too much.

Things I liked: the interconnections and the views of areas that were accessible later made the map very interesting and attractive. I still don't know what areas were intentional left without monsters but as I said before to meet them after a while in the start it built some tension and atmosphere. The rooms are polychromatic and have different themes and detail to characterize them!
I can see the effort that was put in this map! Good look and keep it up!

Sorry for all this wall of text.

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Oh no problem, I love long and detailed posts! Will take what you said in consideration. As for the combat, it is my weakest part although I think the fights in the rooms with wood textures were pretty good. Think I've found a good way to make zombiemen dangerous. Some zones are lacking monsters because I don't know how to spice things up but the beginning is deliberately more tense. Towards the middle of the map the action is going to intensify (with some big surprises here and there) and finally after the big gates it's going to get really serious but not really slaugher map. I am also considering splitting the map after the gates but part of me wants to have a continuous adventure feel. On the other hand I would love to use a different MIDI for the hell part. ATM I use E2M8 from DTWiD and would use https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzMeNg_WD2Q&index=4&list=PLF8XAjjlPLvxN-SG_sbCfM8FUFXVposTE for the medieval hell part.

My other biggest weakness is making the overall shape of the room, which I think is the most important thing after fights.

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Oops... For a while I was forgetting this is for Doom 1 (so you have less monsters available). The wooden rooms were very good, they have a classic feel that I like it! Also in the first big fight the pinkies and the lost souls did a great job making dangerous for me to use the rocket launcher! About the shapes I noticed they are mostly orthogonal (squares and rectangles), just use more circles/curves or break shapes with non-90° angles. For example when I make a room I always have at least a little idea of what monsters and traps set there and I try to make each time different situations. You can try to make some small maps or even participate in some community project so you can receive feedback and get more mapping experience.

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DooM_RO said:

As for the decorations, I am particularly proud of this one

http://i.imgur.com/4riw9Gd.png

Strongly resembles Wrack. Interesting, even if simple.

Now some map feedback:
-It overally feels like a mess. Improportionate thing placement, detail amount, room sizes, texturing themes, chaotic progression, misaligned textures... All of these in a bad way.
-Floor details that make the player bump up and down while simply walking through a corridor are annoying, because they break comfort. The "improved" visual aspect of the corridor is not worth it.
-Many areas are too dark, many feature high light contrast in combination with blinking/strobing effects, which is eye-unpleasant or at least inconvenient for navigation.
-Side linedefs in doors should be given a "lower unpegged" flag.
-Textures like SHAWN or TEKWALL4 look bad when pasted over large walls. That's what generic walltextures are for. The former textures are more suitable for details, like the certain TEKWALL2 panels you've got at one place, those were good.
-Many thin wall details can be "stepped into" (computer screens etc), which is odd. Either make them impassable, or raise them more than 24 units above the floor.
-Don't populate an entire room with only 1 enemy type, it feels lazy and unprofessional.
-Don't use deaf monsters inside monster closets. They should wake up as soon as the closet opens and they can hear the player. If they're deaf, the player needs to come for them.
-Generally, try using the monsters more efficiently to give a challenge to the player. He can almost always skip fights easily in your map, and is likely to do so, because fighting a meaty horde would be an extreme tedium. Motivate the player to fight monsters, via a reasonable balance.

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I know it has a lot of misaligned textures, especially in the Yellow Key area and some of the red ones but that's because they are still rough drafts. Monster placement is still placeholder-ish in the yellow key area. Of all the key areas, that is the most unfinished. Some of the strobing light effects right before the Hell area are going to be removed...but I keep forgetting to.

As for monster placement, I can't really think of a place where I used only one monster type, except in the yellow key section (wchich is again, unfinished). The one with lots of imps and cacos is like that because I wanted that room to have a lot of projectile dodging. Keep in mind that this is a Doom 1 map, the roster is more limited.

Could you be a bit more specific with your criticism? "It overally feels like a mess. Improportionate thing placement, detail amount, room sizes, texturing themes, chaotic progression, misaligned textures... All of these in a bad way" is pretty vague and doesn't really help me.

You may even modify the map in Doombuilder and post screenshots if you wish to prove a point.

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By "improportionate", I've meant that some rooms are overly spacious (much more than needed), others are small (much more than comfortable), some are bland (and therefore ugly), others have too dense detail (that can be ugly too, specially when contrasting with the other bland areas), you randomly go from tech to hell to tech to hell and so on. You surely can spot large x small rooms, bland x detailed rooms, and quick theme changing rooms in your map. Then you can scale down the big rooms to be as small as possible to still function right, add/remove detail to be balanced throughout the map, etc.

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Yes, some of them are bland but I am running out of ideas on how to make them more interesting which is why I started this thread.

I thought my map should have a variety of environmets, color, lighting and texture use. I consider variety to be a cornerstone element of Doom.

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While it's a good approach in principle, it starts becoming a problem when overdone - like everything else. Certain things give a bad impression when clashing together, for example color combinations or said improportionate detailing. Besides that, bland rooms are bad on their own right, as well as oversized rooms, etc. In short, variety is good, imbalance is not.

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Of course bland rooms are bad but I;m running our of ideas how to make them more interesting and I do agree that some rooms are a bit too big. Like I've already said, they are just rough drafts and would like some advice.

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Advices about rough drafts will be vague advices, because advisors don't want to tell you exactly how to build your map. Turn your rough drafts into designs usable in a finished map, then show them to public and ask for specific advices. Then it's much easier to say "this feels wrong", "this feels right", instead of "this would feel wrong", "this would feel right".

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Alright, then how about the parts that are finished? For example, what did you think of the Hell part (the one after those big SHAWN gates)

What about this? (for example)




gaspe said:

Oops... For a while I was forgetting this is for Doom 1 (so you have less monsters available). The wooden rooms were very good, they have a classic feel that I like it! Also in the first big fight the pinkies and the lost souls did a great job making dangerous for me to use the rocket launcher! About the shapes I noticed they are mostly orthogonal (squares and rectangles), just use more circles/curves or break shapes with non-90° angles. For example when I make a room I always have at least a little idea of what monsters and traps set there and I try to make each time different situations. You can try to make some small maps or even participate in some community project so you can receive feedback and get more mapping experience.


I want to make round shapes (and I've made a few) but making them manually is a pain in the ass. Is there a way to make round shapes automatically?


EDIT:

Oh and by the way, I am not asking you guys to make the map for me, merely nudge me in the right direction.

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DooM_RO said:

I want to make round shapes (and I've made a few) but making them manually is a pain in the ass. Is there a way to make round shapes automatically?


If you are you using Doombuilder 2: go in Linedefs mode, you will see in the toolbar a button with a curve line on it (Curve Linedefs), or you can open the Linedefs menu on the top and there's the option. To use it you must be selecting the line you want to curve. It will appear a window with the options (angle, distance, verteces), and try use fixed circular curve. Just play with it to see how it works better for you and how can you use it. GZDoombuilder has an elipse-mode too.
Personally I draw most of my shapes manually.

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if you ever get mapper's block play your favourite maps, or the maps you're trying to emulate, a few more times & figure out what you like about them. & if you thought one map was ambitious, try 32 ;)

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kermode said:

if you ever get mapper's block play your favourite maps, or the maps you're trying to emulate, a few more times & figure out what you like about them. & if you thought one map was ambitious, try 32 ;)


I do that quite frequently. Threshold of Pain (among others) is an inspiration. Problem is that while I understand how these maps work and how the author made them, I find it very difficult to incorporate these ideas.

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