Earth On Hell Map (Palace of Souls) UPDATED

I would like it if some people would play the updated version and warn me if there are still elements of the map that need working on. Since the last version I have fixed various things that were previously mentioned by you guys. However I haven't fully implemented multiplayer yet.

UPDATED VERSION 2 LINK:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bcvajqawzgsvm8n/PALACEOFSOULS2.wad?dl=0

This is a map from my currently in progress Earth On Hell megawad, and I would like some feedback. Out of the 10 maps in the WAD so far this one is my favorite so I want to know what I can do to improve this map and my other maps, or even tell me what you hated about this one so I know to avoid messing up my other maps. The map is called Palace of Souls and is located far into the WAD so it is supposed to be pretty hard as I think it is, and difficulty is implemented just so you know. Thanks a lot for helping!

EDIT: It is compatible with all source ports. Made with Chocolate in mind

Screenies:

Well, it did feel like rooms connected by hallways, though I have to say the actual rooms were pretty good. Difficulty is fine, monsters are placed decently, and I enjoyed it. Just reduce the hallway-ness of your design and I think it'll be great.

Also is that a midi version of a Quake 2 track I hear?

Yep Quake II rocks haha! Thanks for the feedback and yeah I know there are quite a bit of hallways but I kinda like them because they split up the rooms.

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

but I kinda like them because they split up the rooms.

You missed the point. The point is that visiting one room after another (all the time) tends to be boring, it doesn't matter if they're connected directly or by hallways. Overall interconnectivity and self-intertwining architecture (with enough contrast and variation in different aspects, like height levels and shapes and sizes of parts of the rooms, and ways of progression) has better chances to feel fun.

scifista42 said:

You missed the point. The point is that visiting one room after another (all the time) tends to be boring, it doesn't matter if they're connected directly or by hallways. Overall interconnectivity and self-intertwining architecture (with enough contrast and variation in different aspects, like height levels and shapes and sizes of parts of the rooms, and ways of progression) has better chances to feel fun.

I'm just wondering. Did you play my map? I thought I had a lot of height and light variation. But maybe not, any places in particular that you think look bland? Thanks for the insight

I haven't played it yet, I just generically reacted to the response you made, I thought I could imagine the situation from AD_79's words and from knowing your previous map.

IMO the previous map I showed sucked compared to anything I have created recently. I am constantly improving as a mapper (at least I think haha) and I have drastically changed direction in my maps.

I played this on Zandronum on UV. Visually I really liked this map, and from a gameplay sense I really want to like it, but I finished the map with a massive sense of frustration.

- The start area was brilliant.
- No armour anywhere to be found on a map with a good few mid tier enemies and a lot of hitscan?
- I seemed to be very low on ammo for the first 2/3 of the map, until getting the red key and a lot of teleporting enemies that dropped tons of SGs. You have a lot of ammo on damaging floor, and while there are some health packs around there too, the lack of armour makes the health/ammo trade an unfavourable one.
- I found 100 cells, but no PG or BFG anywhere?
- The area with the backpack I seemed to have to cross at least 3 times, probably more, with a damaging floor and no obvious radiation suit?
- The area with the AV is good in theory, but the ammo pickups just before don't balance out. The area is designed in such a way that the amount of body blocking the HKs did on my attempts to kill the AV were insane. The SSG and/or CG isn't really equipped to tear through this room if you are unlucky with the resurrections. The AV can resurrect 6 HKs, so if you hit everything individually that takes up to 44 Shells. This is something I feel that many people don't fully take into account when considering ammo placements on maps with AVs. I'm not saying you need a full arsenal, but you can't just consider the ammo cost of killing the AV, you have to consider the cost of killing everything it could reasonably resurrect before you're able to kill it. Playing through again I would save my rockets for here, but you've made the previous parts of the map have so many Cacodemons that it's not unreasonable to think that someone will use the RL before getting to the AV and have little or no ammo left for it by now. (Though if I had a PG by this point, that would make this room more or less fine as you would almost certainly have some ammo left for either the RL or PG no matter how you played the previous parts of the map)
- I see you've put a bit of multiplayer work in here too, but looking at what you've placed in the very first room on UV you definitely need more firepower there.

Other than that, I did enjoy this and if this is part of a Megawad then I'm quite looking forward to the rest.

degree23 said:

I played this on Zandronum on UV. Visually I really liked this map, and from a gameplay sense I really want to like it, but I finished the map with a massive sense of frustration.

- The start area was brilliant.
- No armour anywhere to be found on a map with a good few mid tier enemies and a lot of hitscan?
- I seemed to be very low on ammo for the first 2/3 of the map, until getting the red key and a lot of teleporting enemies that dropped tons of SGs. You have a lot of ammo on damaging floor, and while there are some health packs around there too, the lack of armour makes the health/ammo trade an unfavourable one.
- I found 100 cells, but no PG or BFG anywhere?
- The area with the backpack I seemed to have to cross at least 3 times, probably more, with a damaging floor and no obvious radiation suit?
- The area with the AV is good in theory, but the ammo pickups just before don't balance out. The area is designed in such a way that the amount of body blocking the HKs did on my attempts to kill the AV were insane. The SSG and/or CG isn't really equipped to tear through this room if you are unlucky with the resurrections. The AV can resurrect 6 HKs, so if you hit everything individually that takes up to 44 Shells. This is something I feel that many people don't fully take into account when considering ammo placements on maps with AVs. I'm not saying you need a full arsenal, but you can't just consider the ammo cost of killing the AV, you have to consider the cost of killing everything it could reasonably resurrect before you're able to kill it. Playing through again I would save my rockets for here, but you've made the previous parts of the map have so many Cacodemons that it's not unreasonable to think that someone will use the RL before getting to the AV and have little or no ammo left for it by now. (Though if I had a PG by this point, that would make this room more or less fine as you would almost certainly have some ammo left for either the RL or PG no matter how you played the previous parts of the map)
- I see you've put a bit of multiplayer work in here too, but looking at what you've placed in the very first room on UV you definitely need more firepower there.

Other than that, I did enjoy this and if this is part of a Megawad then I'm quite looking forward to the rest.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll answer these. I know about the lack of ammo in the beginning, but this map is not supposed to be played from pistol start so in theory the player should already have ammo and weapons to deal with the first room. Also there are cells on the map because in my megawad the player has already picked up the BFG and PG. However you bring up good points on the bridge with the backpack. I will put a rad suit down there. Also do you have any suggestions on where I should put the armor? Secret or not?

Anyway on to your main complaint, the AV is not hard to beat with rockets. The whole point of the AV facing away from you is that so the player sees him and the dead HKs before the AV attacks. It gives the player time to think about his next move. I always use all my rockets on the Cacos before this point and I can beat the AV with relative ease. Hint the windows are your friend, you can walk around the room and kill the AV with the SSG in like 4-5 hits. The only problem is probably the imps that spawn to block you I might get rid of them.

The first room on multiplayer is pretty much a joke haha! I forgot about it.

The IWADs are also designed to be played continuously, but all of them have pistol-start weapon placements that allow you to complete the levels without too much of a struggle. I don't know if a MegaArmor is needed, so a regular Armor as a non-secret is probably fine. The AV facing away makes no real difference because as soon as you fire he will invariably move and start resurrecting. The imps block you from moving however, and while there are windows at the side that doesn't really make too much difference. It will be tough to kill it before it is able to resurrect at least 2 or 3 HKs if you're lucky, or more if you're unlucky. Even with ammo for the RL there is still this problem, just you will be able to punch through the resurrections more easily.

The Cyberdemon in MP is fine I think, you just need a bit more ammo. Are all your maps going to have MP elements? I play co-op fairly regularly with my brother. We're currently on Valiant, but are always looking for new Megawads to play through that have MP support in mind!

@degree23 So far my maps only have player starts but to answer your question, yes I'm going to try and balance the maps in MP so they harder than SP but not unreasonably difficult. Also I know I need to add extra ammo in MP.

I had a go at this map and recorded a demo in case it is useful
http://www.mediafire.com/download/xt14ohqo4xhg9zm/palace-mouldy.lmp

Its a very square map, bit minimalist for my tastes, but plays ok. I seemed to make it more interesting than you perhaps intended by running from the first room without killing anything, which meant when I eventually had to go back to the start it was full of lost souls. With ammo as tight as it is I found myself running out, but somehow managed to get through it and kill everything. I saved myself into a bad situation half way through so started again going a different route (nice to have that choice). Yeah, some interesting decisions you made about putting resources in red hot lava, I guess there is a secret rad-suit though. I think I was a bit lucky with the archvile, I had enough rockets to kill him from the doorway.

My only criticism is how square and basic it looks, like more basic even than the iwad maps. Thats down to personal taste of course, and decorative details wont change the gameplay at all anyway, but having a more structurally varied environment can open up more possibilities for interesting fights, so might be something to consider for future maps.

@mouldy I couldn't play your demo in Chocolate Doom it gave me an error saying I had a wrong version of Doom even though I have v1.9. Anyway thanks for the advice, I know the design was minimalistic but that was mostly because I was afraid of drawseg overflow in the first room and then I wanted the rest of the map to fit in. I put ammo in the lava as a sort of trade off, health for ammo if you really need it. Thanks for the feedback though

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

I know the design was minimalistic but that was mostly because I was afraid of drawseg overflow in the first room and then I wanted the rest of the map to fit in.

Do you use chocorenderlimits? It can show you just how much you can get away with in vanilla.

What AD_79 said, plus you can also use Visplane Explorer plugin for your mapping editor (if it's DB2 or GZDB) that will help you to precisely locate places with high visplane and drawseg counts.

I use visplane explorer a lot I just meant that the original design of the room was simplistic to avoid this problem altogether (I hate having to delete detail after it becomes a part of the map in my mind)

the demo will play with prboom+ by the way.

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

I use visplane explorer a lot I just meant that the original design of the room was simplistic to avoid this problem altogether (I hate having to delete detail after it becomes a part of the map in my mind)

I also used it when making Incineration last year. The real challenge was that huge outdoor map E3M6 but managed to keep the visplane count below 100. There are no visplane overflows in that episode.

Updated the OP with the link to the updated version :) Thanks for all the previous feedback!