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Kontra Kommando

Hypothetical Question: What if the USA Collapsed?

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Suppose the United States goes the way of the USSR, and ceased to exist. What do you suppose would happen to the former-USA, and the world? No doubt there would be the greatest power-vacuum in human history. Consider all of the influence, the USA has, vanishing. Globalization would probably come to an end, and institutions like the UN would most-likely follow. Moreover, how would other major powers like Russia and China proceed in this scenario?

Discuss.

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Bigger powers (China, Russia) and smaller countries (Mexico, Iran, North Korea) would obviously take advantage of the US's weakness. Europe, Canada and the UK will try and help.

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SavageCorona said:

Well there'd be a giant whirlpool where it used to be cause all the water would rush in.


This. Exactly this.

A lot of currencies are backed by USD while ours is backed by gold and imagination.

So if there is no more US you mean the government right like no more nation? Someone would step up. Americans would step up and govern themselves even if people say they hate the government, someone has to do it. Most likely a coalition of parents or businessmen.

There will always be leaders and people looking for leaders. That's just how humans are. Even in anarchy and chaos people will still manage to make normalcy happen. Even if it starts with one household and grows to another before it becomes a village. Nothing would change.

If Mexico, China or USSR try to invade or take over... even without a government, we still have generals, an army, jets, tanks. Beyond that everyone with a gun would stand for the USA if Mexican soldiers broke their doors down and started threatening them, their prosperity or their family.

If you think the army would fold when no one is paying them, you'd be wrong. They have pride in being the best whether they're paid or not. There are fail safes to ensure even the collapse of the USA doesn't mean the collapse of the people inside it.

There are towns with mayors that are goats, 3 and 6 year old children. Somehow America will survive.

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geo said:

This. Exactly this.

A lot of currencies are backed by USD while ours is backed by gold and imagination.

So if there is no more US you mean the government right like no more nation? Someone would step up. Americans would step up and govern themselves even if people say they hate the government, someone has to do it. Most likely a coalition of parents or businessmen.

There will always be leaders and people looking for leaders. That's just how humans are. Even in anarchy and chaos people will still manage to make normalcy happen. Even if it starts with one household and grows to another before it becomes a village. Nothing would change.

If Mexico, China or USSR try to invade or take over... even without a government, we still have generals, an army, jets, tanks. Beyond that everyone with a gun would stand for the USA if Mexican soldiers broke their doors down and started threatening them, their prosperity or their family.

If you think the army would fold when no one is paying them, you'd be wrong. They have pride in being the best whether they're paid or not. There are fail safes to ensure even the collapse of the USA doesn't mean the collapse of the people inside it.

There are towns with mayors that are goats, 3 and 6 year old children. Somehow America will survive.


I think the former-United States would probably be broken up into smaller nations. From the past up until the present; the USA has been a very regionalist country. Further, I bet some would even go to war with one another over resources and territory. Influential people within their respective sections would most-likely try to assume power. Unless you get a modern-day version of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian I; I doubt there would be any hope of re-unification. Rather, the people who assume power would more likely seek to keep the country divided, in an effort to maintain their gains. Sort of like how the Popes always sought to keep Italy broken up into city-states, because that made them easier to control. If the United States were able to be reformed, it would have to probably be re-conquered by people within it, that would seek to keep it separate. in short; if the U.S. government fell, there would probably be a long drawn out civil war. Moreover, whoever wins that war would probably want to enforce their ideals; which could probably be very different from that of the current government. It could be socialist; fascist; capitalist/ racist; tolerant/ religious; secular, etc.

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I'm fine with states as nations. Especially because I live in one of the better states. The better ones are always broke. Rhode Island might be screwed.

Ha some states go to war. Back when I used to play Risk, I made my own hardcore game of Risk between a road map of WI and IL. to play with a friend. We had tanks and stuff rather than typical games of Risk. We had rulers to measure movements per turn.

I'm sure there would be a reunification except Texas, that can be its own state. Oh and Alaska and Hawaii, but they kinda have to be states to ensure our safety and theirs. You don't want some other country taking a foothold on some island nation to stage something. Giving up any land is a bad thing, especially if you play MVM.

Guys setup way back here we can defend the point back here guys defend like a turtle! Nope we need a great big land or we'd get taken over one state / state nation at a time.

We didn't get all this land just to go back to having states as nations. No one wants to travel to Michigan and know they only speak French there or they have their own currency or now we need a border pass to get in. Again people love their freedoms. The ability to do things with ease.

A lot of people work state to state. There's already a 2 hour traffic jam for some people going state to state in rush hour. I can't imagine that happening with a border check suddenly its 4 hours. The businesses will collapse. The businesses that survive will push for open borders so their employees can live in cheaper states so they can pay them non union wage.

Those businesses pay taxes and if they don't stay in business... well that's less money for your state nation. I'd also love to see the logistics of making each state into its nation all of the border patrols. How much money it would cost to build checkpoints let alone actual borders.

I don't want those dirty Iowans sneaking into my state. Where's that truck going full of California products? New York huh? We've gotta check it AT EVERY BORDER. Check it going in, check it going out for the next 10 - 15 states you drive through. Good luck keeping that schedule.

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If it would be a reasonable political collapse it might bring in a new economical depression with global influence, a political reformation, and years of political infighting on the American soil... and probably one giant global political headache about the dangers of having the FBI / CIA / US army going mental and beyond prism into a "one hundred years of vile scandals" situation under any possible new name or any organizational structure these agencies might take on.

unless people would magically turn into extreme and ravaging monsters because of a collapsed government... things should remain acceptable.

Edit ;
just to be certain ; This is a simplified and condensed response...

Kontra Kommando said:

Globalization would probably come to an end...


How would emigration, immigration, and the mixing of cultures and nationalities come to and end if the US would end its current known existence ? Oh, right ! humanity would magically end all known forms of the aforementioned activities... and i realized i truly hate how the media creates buzzwords out of terms like 'globalization'.

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FireFish said:

How would emigration, immigration, and the mixing of cultures and nationalities come to and end if the US would end its current known existence ? Oh, right ! humanity would magically end all known forms of the aforementioned activities... and i realized i truly hate how the media creates buzzwords out of terms like 'globalization'.


I was referring more so to contemporary globalization; meaning the order of the world that was established after WWII. Certainly without the United States, the world economy would be sent into a tail-spin.

http://www.globalization101.org/what-is-globalization/

This current wave of globalization has been driven by policies that have opened economies domestically and internationally. In the years since the Second World War, and especially during the past two decades, many governments have adopted free-market economic systems, vastly increasing their own productive potential and creating myriad new opportunities for international trade and investment. Governments also have negotiated dramatic reductions in barriers to commerce and have established international agreements to promote trade in goods, services, and investment. Taking advantage of new opportunities in foreign markets, corporations have built foreign factories and established production and marketing arrangements with foreign partners. A defining feature of globalization, therefore, is an international industrial and financial business structure.


FireFish said:

unless people would magically turn into extreme and ravaging monsters because of a collapsed government... things should remain acceptable.



https://vault.fbi.gov/gangs-extremist-groups?b_start:int=20

idk about that... not to mention groups that would be formed in an effort to stop them.

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I honestly wouldn't mind if the US federal government ceased to exist and then the US broke up into smaller countries. Much of the regions could be self-sustaining anyway. Many states like California, Texas, New York, etc. have economies that could sustain them. We would have much more variety here in the states since people would have more freedom to choose which laws they want for their particular state or country. Southern states could be as conservative/religious as they want to be and also have as much capitalism as they desire. Northern and western states could be as liberal/secular as they want to be and also have as much socialism as they desire. They could have all the gun control in the world and no powerful lobby up in Washington like the NRA could impede them.

I think it would be a very interesting experiment.

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Kontra Kommando said:

I was referring more so to contemporary globalization; meaning the order of the world that was established after WWII. Certainly without the United States, the world economy would be sent into a tail-spin.
http://www.globalization101.org/what-is-globalization/


They really need a new way of addressing that aspect of the global market. As i said, i hate buzzwords, and globalization is one of them which is being used for more than economy.

But i stick to my previous post... A simple governmental collapse and reformation of the states and how they are being controlled could cause financial problems with a global reach... and cause a global headache concerning the dangers of having the FBI / CIA / US army grabbing a chance at more unrestrained power in the shadows of the reformation. And some states could go for independence.

But unless the American citizens turn into ravaging monsters it should even itself out both internally and for the global aspect.

I would be more worried about the American nukes and who or what gets access to them during such a scenario... preferably not the stereotypical army admiring mindless gun nut out for Russian or mid eastern blood.

I repeat ;
this is a simplified, condensed response... dont even assume anything.

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doom_is_great said:

I honestly wouldn't mind if the US federal government ceased to exist and then the US broke up into smaller countries. Much of the regions could be self-sustaining anyway. Many states like California, Texas, New York, etc. have economies that could sustain them.


Texas would probably do just fine if they were to break away from the US. They have a fairly strong economy and it's know for being a much more business friendly state than the Kommunist Яepublik of Kalifornia.

If states were to secede from the soon-to-be Doomed Union with $18,000,000,000,000 and counting worth of national debt, I would hope they would adopt a new currency that is backed on tangible assets like gold and silver... heh who am I kidding, this will never happen.

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doom_is_great said:

I honestly wouldn't mind if the US federal government ceased to exist and then the US broke up into smaller countries. Much of the regions could be self-sustaining anyway. Many states like California, Texas, New York, etc. have economies that could sustain them.

Not when said economies exist based on free and open interstate commerce regulated by a federal government. I'll grant that california may have the best prospects, it does have a massive ag industry, but it produces little in the way of wheat, rice or corn. Not to mention the ongoing water crisis and whatever negative long term effects that is going to have.

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A crazy, utterly nonsensical hypothetical of Goatlord proportions only serving as a rallying flag for teabaggers. Get a room. Oh wait, you did.

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Now that's actually a hypothetical within the realm of the possible. Ironically, the resulting chaos and free-for-all ripping&tearing of European economies would probably make the US federation stronger in the, um, togetherness sense. You know, seeing the decadent post-everything idiots rushing towards political insignificance and economical oblivion would probably lead quite a lot of American people to accept the brilliant idea of "let's not do that".

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dew said:

A crazy, utterly nonsensical hypothetical of Goatlord proportions only serving as a rallying flag for teabaggers. Get a room. Oh wait, you did.


How is the fall of a government a nonsensical and crazy hypothetical question? Governments rise and fall all of the time.

dew said:

You know, seeing the decadent post-everything idiots rushing towards political insignificance and economical oblivion would probably lead quite a lot of American people to accept the brilliant idea of "let's not do that".


What makes you so sure of that, considering the history, and regionalistic culture of the United States? Even within those regions, divisions may run deep; much of the urban centers of the USA are still predominately separated by ethnic and racial enclaves. not to mention the division of class. You honestly don't believe that there's in fact a critical mass within this country that would absolutely love to see the gov't fall? The USA is not exactly a collectivist homogeneous nation-state. Here's a good example, when the eastern seaboard was struck with those super-storms, many other U.S. citizens did not exactly have sympathy for sending federal aid for reconstruction.

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Kontra Kommando said:

How is the fall of a government a nonsensical and crazy hypothetical question? Governments rise and fall all of the time.

Any examples?

Kontra Kommando said:

What makes you so sure of that, considering the history, and regionalistic culture of the United States? You honestly don't believe that there's in fact a critical mass within this country that would absolutely love to see the gov't fall? The USA is not exactly a collectivist homogeneous nation-state.

No, only teabaggers believe there's "a critical mass" of Americans just itching to overthrow the goddamn government of the US and create a, uh... libertarian paradise or something. I can tell you that from the middle of Europe. Regionalistic? America is the most homogenous "empire" currently found on Earth. EU, Russia, China, probably even silly Canada have stronger separationist elements. And America's history? Heh, still dwelling on the loss of the South in the Civil War that happened like 700 years ago?

America is disgustingly stable when compared to the rest of the world - and for good reasons. America cannot be America if it isn't the strongest country in the world. All those "regionalistic cultures" of the US would fall like flies standing alone against other big players.

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dew said:

Any examples?

Here's a good one, the Roman Empire. Maybe you've heard of it.

dew said:

No, only teabaggers believe there's "a critical mass" of Americans just itching to overthrow the goddamn government of the US and create a, uh... libertarian paradise or something. I can tell you that from the middle of Europe. Regionalistic? America is the most homogenous "empire" currently found on Earth. EU, Russia, China, probably even silly Canada have stronger separationist elements. And America's history? Heh, still dwelling on the loss of the South in the Civil War that happened like 700 years ago?

America is disgustingly stable when compared to the rest of the world - and for good reasons. America cannot be America if it isn't the strongest country in the world. All those "regionalistic cultures" of the US would fall like flies standing alone against other big players.


Considering the fact that I co-majored in both american history, and U.S. politics in college; there's nothing more than I love than to be lectured by a layman that has probably never even been to this country. Its not just "teabaggers" that would love to see the gov't fall, but belligerent left-wing radicals like yourself. And what exactly makes this country stable? The authority of the federal gov't. The question was what if the gov't didn't exist. Also, WTF are you even talking about anyway? Obviously the thread illustrates the doom's day scenarios if the federal gov't didn't exist.

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Kontra Kommando said:

Here's a good one, the Roman Empire. Maybe you've heard of it.

Uh huh, or the Old Republic in Star Wars, right? Does "all of the time" mean "once in two millenia" here? I saw the mocking ad hominems, btw.

Kontra Kommando said:

Considering the fact that I co-majored both american history, and U.S. politics in college; there's nothing more than I love than to be lecture by a layman that has probably never even been to this country. Its not just "teabaggers" that would love to see the gov't fall, but belligerent left-wing radicals like yourself. And what exactly makes this country stable? The authority of the federal gov't. The question was what if the gov't didn't exist. Also, WTF are you even talking about anyway? Obviously the thread illustrates the doom's day scenarios if the federal gov't didn't exist.

1) Sorry I treaded on you, oh great authority on Murca (fuck yeah).
2) Yes, the Belligerent Left Wing Radical Party of Czech Republic, of which I am a founding member, works tirelessly to overthrow the American government. You got me there.
3) The question was a crazy nonsensical hypothetical, as mentioned and explained above. The world withstands much bigger turmoils than the inner struggles tearing America apart, Lisa.
4) Can the scenarios be inserted rectally?

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dew said:

Uh huh, or the Old Republic in Star Wars, right? Does "all of the time" mean "once in two millenia" here? I saw the mocking ad hominems, btw.

1) Sorry I treaded on you, oh great authority on Murca (fuck yeah).
2) Yes, the Belligerent Left Wing Radical Party of Czech Republic, of which I am a founding member, works tirelessly to overthrow the American government. You got me there.
3) The question was a crazy nonsensical hypothetical, as mentioned and explained above. The world withstands much bigger turmoils than the inner struggles tearing America apart, Lisa.
4) Can the scenarios be inserted rectally?


Idk, you seem to be the one that is dictating what we're allowed to discuss in a thread I created. So proceed if you must; but I'm not going to feed into your anger-fueled provocations after this post.

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the_miano said:

If states were to secede from the soon-to-be Doomed Union with $18,000,000,000,000 and counting worth of national debt, I would hope they would adopt a new currency that is backed on tangible assets like gold and silver... heh who am I kidding, this will never happen.


China would be pretty pissed off if they didn't have the U.S. federal gov't to pay back the debt it owes. I could see them backing the remnants of the U.S. gov't with military aid, in an effort to reunify; only to create a puppet-gov't here that would be servile to their interests.

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doom_is_great said:

We would have much more variety here in the states since people would have more freedom to choose which laws they want for their particular state or country. Southern states could be as conservative/religious as they want to be and also have as much capitalism as they desire.

The mere thought horrifies me, especially considering all of the nasty things a lot of people want to do underneath the banner of "States Rights", like doing away with Civil Rights. Texas in particular would end up being a breeding ground for human rights abuses.

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I see the rest of the world trying to fight over the US and the Us possibly being divided up among several other countries after a rather long war. I do not see the the majority of US citizens fights to take the country back. Because the majority will be too busy running for the hills the moment the federal government collapses.

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SlashBane said:

Go watch The Postman.

Then Waterworld.

Or just scratch those and watch Seaquest




Also Mad Max movies, but just apply it to the USA instead of Australia.

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It won't be bad. If this is where we got to in the first place we'll get back here. But its fun to say we will all kill each other over water, land and oil.

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Us Canadians would take the torch. Then everyone would be friends and buddehs and guys!

Ey Buddeh, Ey Guy.

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I know quite a few Canadians and they're all fantastic people. Rivaled only by the Sweeds.

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