Loadouts

There's more to this than we know right now, I found an interesting quote from a Polygon article:

According to executive producer Marty Stratton, there's much more to the multiplayer experience of Doom — most of which hasn't been announced yet.

"There's a lot of stuff, actually, that we're not going into too much detail about yet, because we have a while before we're coming out," Stratton said. "There's whole components of multiplayer that aren't represented in this pre-alpha here at QuakeCon."

The whole article's here.

http://www.polygon.com/2015/7/23/9027433/doom-4-multiplayer-preview-gameplay-loadouts-unlocks

In other words, don't panic yet.

I'm OK with unlocks, classes and that stuff for the multiplayer part. Depending on modes these may be more or less relevant. Or Revenant.

DooM_RO said:

Guys guys, it's all ok. With Snapmap we will be able to modify stuff like weapons speed as well as make new game modes. Do you really think a classic Quake 3 style mode is out of the question? If they won't make it, we will.

I think people might be overestimating how much can be done with SnapMap. Seriously, the map builder has become the cure-all panacea for every new Doom disappointment discovered on this forum. "Everything will be fixed with SnapMap."


I highly doubt the map making suite will let us change things like character speed and weapon carry limits. You've got to keep in mind that they've balanced the game's various mechanics around a certain movement speed. You can't just change that without throwing things out of whack. It will probably take a more robust modding scene to develop before that can happen. And that will be months.

Like it or not, this new Doom is designed for consoles first. If you want truly old-school arena MP in new games, the smaller, indie scene is the only option. In the present, AAA gaming is console gaming.

Unlockables, are they serious? Well traditional Death Match goes flying out the window it seems. Chances are it will be similar to CoD as far as MP goes which I really wouldn't look forward to if so.

I have to admit that I'm a bit concerned by the various MP powerups/abilities.

I like the Demon powerup and the re-image of UT's translocator seems Doomy enough.

But, to me Quad Damage is 'quake' not Doom. And seeing through walls and stuff...

Early Quake and Doom are very similar games anyways. In fact, there was a period of time during Quake's development where it was to be rebranded as a Doom game, but id decided against it at the last minute.

In reality, Doom 4 is whatever the devs want. At the moment they're kind of flipping the bird to the masses and purists alike, and I like that.

Vermil said:

the re-image of UT's translocator

Shame on you! Personal teleporter was in Quake 3 Arena.

Orchid87 said:

Shame on you! Personal teleporter was in Quake 3 Arena.

The description of the item is clearly like the translocator and nothing like the teleport item in Q3.

TheGamePhilosophe said:

I highly doubt the map making suite will let us change things like character speed and weapon carry limits.

It's been confirmed that movement speed can be altered in SnapMap. Marty said so in a recent interview. You can also see in the SnapMap trailer that the player is moving faster than in the QuakeCon multiplayer footage.

ChickenOrBeef said:

It's been confirmed that movement speed can be altered in SnapMap. Marty said so in a recent interview.

Got a source on that?

TheGamePhilosophe said:

Got a source on that?

"You can use the system to change the way the HUD displays the score, change the way players move in the world, you can make them slower and faster."

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/interviews/a655477/doom-interview-its-bruce-lee-on-a-skateboard-with-a-shotgun.html#~pjoits4uonzZ7r

TheGamePhilosophe said:

I highly doubt the map making suite will let us change things like character speed and weapon carry limits.

Erm, in the E3 presentation Snapmap LITERALLY advertised the possibility of modes where you kill demons to earn credits that you buy new guns with.

https://youtu.be/QiinO9JPUGw?t=13m

So as far as guns go, it'll be fine. Character speed may be something else, though. But I'd like playing the game first before making judgements on that.

Jaxxoon R said:

In fact, there was a period of time during Quake's development where it was to be rebranded as a Doom game, but id decided against it at the last minute.

Do you have a source for this? I have never heard of this and have been following id Software for a long time.

If the current MP mode is pre-alpha, i just hope Id will use all the time they have on making something appealing to the masses and doomers at the same time and stop pleasing the COD elitists.
By judging how they deleted all the vids showing MP gameplay, i feel they were forced to show a bit more just because Quakecon and keep the hype going. Dont get me wrong, theres a lot of good stuff, the arena maps resembling UT, the static cannon concept is a very original idea and the powerups are OK.
But the classes, loadouts and weapon limits, no thanks, get rid of it. The whole multiplayer experience will eventually lose continuity if the player can get most of the weapons from a menu when starting. It would be much better if you can choose one starting weapon out of 2-3 relatively weak weapons while the big toys and powerups are scattered on the map, surrounded by hazards or in hard-to-reach places.

"Stop whining around, Snapmap will let you modify the speed, weapon limits and create new game modes."

Absolutely great, but that doesn't means Id can easily run over old-school multiplayer and stick to modern standards.

kelliegator said:

So as far as guns go, it'll be fine. Character speed may be something else, though. But I'd like playing the game first before making judgements on that.

Exactly, people really need to take in mind that the game was balanced around the current speed. Changing it may break the game. I think the speed is fine as it is.

It's like changing the tempo of a song.

Winged_Warrior said:

It would be much better if you can choose one starting weapon out of 2-3 relatively weak weapons while the big toys and powerups are scattered on the map, surrounded by hazards or in hard-to-reach places.

I agree with this as it's one of the problems the MMS strain of MP. For example, that Prestige 10 level 50 in COD:AW automatically has the best weapons and gear available and uses it to decimate everyone else on the map, so someone like me who's getting into it a year later is finding it rather difficult to live more than 30-60 seconds at a time because some no-life PLG-wanna be is no-scoping people through walls (there are wall hack abilities in this game FFS) while running Warbird and System Hack kill streaks in the first few minutes of the game. Throws it completely out of whack - there's a reason I quit COD after MW3 (and also have a nice foot shaped hole in my drywall from raging so bad.)

Everybody starting with a couple of weak weapons though - say just the pistol and regular shotgun, but able modify your equipment, or even giving you the option to start with nothing but fists if you choose to be that foolish/skilled/hardcore - then finding better as you go along would be okay for loadouts.

The real question is, how are they handling the D-Pad? Destiny (especially being a console only game) is a great example of this. Instead of assigning useful functions to the D-Pad, like using ammo synths or glimmer consumables, or even letting us switch out weapons or gear without having to go into the options menu - instead, the D-Pad is assigned to useless dancing and waving emotes that no, Bungie, I will not throw money at the screen for.

The D-Pad is a great alternative to the weapon wheel - see the console version of Half-Life 2: up was melee weapons, left pistols, right shot guns and ARs, bottom explosives. Or some variation of that; I haven't played it in a while. And there was a quick switch button so you could go to your last selected weapon.

The PS4 has an additional button that can also function as a touch pad (and I think it's clickable in two places as well, essentially giving it a possible three functions) plus Six-Axis - in other words, 17 possible buttons to assign function to, and you can even make something function with the snap of a wrist. Fuck the XBO if it doesn't have the extra buttons; why should the superior PC or PS4 versions suffer for Microsoft's lack of foresight? (Why should the PC suffer for PS4's lack of keyboard and mouse, for that matter, but this is the time we live in.)

The best weapons and power-ups need a sort of balancing act too; having the BFG in one hard to reach place is okay, but if everybody goes for that spot all the time it turns into a meat grinder very quickly. (Think the center flag in BF3's Operation Metro or BF4's Operation Locker. Great for Double XP weekends though.) Maybe the power-ups and OP weapons have two or three spots they can spawn in perhaps? Although then it becomes more luck based, which diminishes skill to an extent. So IDK where the middle ground on this one is.

I want the sniper rifles gone though. Never has there been a class of weapon in MP I despise more than the sniper rifle. Railguns can be just as bad, although I never found myself hating people in Quake II the way I've hated people with sniper rifles the last ten years.

They're okay in BF4, provided the recon player is actually spotting enemies, providing cover, laser painting targets, setting up forward spawn zones, actually PTFO, et cetera. But most of them don't, and the new DMR class turned everybody into an amateur sniper (none of who could hit the broadside of a barn with a nuclear device), and now the target detectors have given all the n00bs a wall hack and BF4 isn't much fun to play anymore.

Nope. Nope, nope, nope. Fuck that noise.

Keep that shit far away from SP and there will be no issue from me. I'm already miffed that there is no co-op as I like killing demons with friends, not killing them.

There is no loadouts in sp, they are only present in mp but it sucks very much because it makes it not a true afps then. id is basically creator of whole genre (afps), so they should keep pushing it forward instead of getting stagnated by console shooter design..

Isn't this like that thing that Splatoon does also?

If even a Nintendo game has this, it's kind of unsurprising in some capacity that Doom could or would as well.

Can someone explain to me what exactly is so bad about loadouts?

GoatLord said:

Can someone explain to me what exactly is so bad about loadouts?

Loadouts are kinda gay because one of the main elements of competitive DM is the ability to actively seek out the bigger, better weapons rather than just picking what you want. All the fun of "rolling the dice" classic Doom DM offers is lost. If it's optional or only in certain gamemodes or something that would be totally fine though - More ways to play is always a better thing.

I'm more concered about this two weapon limit b00lshit. Everyone's excusing it being like "yeah you usually only use one gun before you die" but that isn't true if you're actually a decent player ;) Again, if it's just an optional setting or flag or whatever, that'd be cool because then it's just another different way to enjoy the game.

If these features are mandatory elements of Deatmatch, that takes a large warm poo on all the classic DM lovers. Total polarizing change of pace. *crosses fingers* please be optional.

So what is the reasoning behind this? Is there some innate gameplay advantage to a two weapon limit? Because neo-Doom doesn't really look like it's trying to be super trendy, so I don't know why the devs would assume it would be a desirable feature.

That loadout concept doesn't sound good to me, it seems too minimalistic and restrictive. Also, how do ammo pickups work with this? Is there unified ammo then?

But I have to admit I have never tried it out, so who knows.

While QL added Loadouts to pub servers in a push to attract more casual players to play more. The game still got the option to play without the loadouts, specially in Duel where the option isn't available at all.

Hopefully, Doom4 got these same options. I don't think loadouts are a bad idea really. But they are a bad idea if the server can't be optioned to not use them. Also, are everyone sure that the two weapon limit is a hard limit? In QL if you play with loadouts, you get two weapons to start with, but you can still pick more up in the map. It's just there as a crutch to get people enjoying the game more and not feel like they never get a chance to have fun and some people just want to play around and shoot stuff. That is fine. Some people want a more skill based game play and that is also fine.

If they are hoping to make Doom 4 the new Quake Live, (though I don't think they are because they said that is a lot of work) they would do well to cover all the bases. Allowing more causal players to use loadouts, and more competetive players to set up the server in a way that appeals to them the most. Just like they did with Quake Live.

Doomkid said:

one of the main elements of competitive DM is the ability to actively seek out the bigger, better weapons rather than just picking what you want.

From what's already been stated in this thread, this is still here though with more of a focus on powerups than upgrading weapon-wise ( although that's still around, based on the laser ).

It's always kind of weird how you can say certain words around this type of community and people will have an immediate allergic reaction and spew fish sauce out their nose. A lot of Doom deathmatch really is based around starting with extremely powerful weapons and so a loadout system is actually really fitting for it, since it gives the player more of a choice instead of just handing them an SSG and telling them to go hog wild. Even ignoring that, there are certainly ways to do a loadout + limited inventory system that doesn't conflict with classic deathmatch's mainstays.

Also, "being able to fix this in SnapMap" really is valid, considering they're probably fully expecting people to do exactly that and so they're making something that would be far more difficult to make in SnapMap - something with out-of-map interaction. I don't find it unlikely that they would've made this type of multiplayer a SnapMap example if it was in SnapMap's capabilities, but it likely isn't so instead they're doing the reverse and making classic Doom deathmatch the SnapMap example and this the default.

Doomkid said:

Loadouts are kinda gay because one of the main elements of competitive DM is the ability to actively seek out the bigger, better weapons rather than just picking what you want.

More than that, in systems with map-spawned weapons, you can play map control and keep your opponent away from weapons you don't want him to have. That was the gameplay that really spawned a competitive scene for Quake 3/Live, and since those are dying some of us were really hoping Doom 4 was going to pick up that torch.

GoatLord said:

So what is the reasoning behind this? Is there some innate gameplay advantage to a two weapon limit? Because neo-Doom doesn't really look like it's trying to be super trendy, so I don't know why the devs would assume it would be a desirable feature.

Reason is 99% sure that you cant slow down time in realtime mp like you can in the sp, to switch your weapon via the weaponwheel. Since this is not possible, controllers would have hard time switching weapons in mid fight, or more likely.. it would just be really clunky and unsure if you had to select something in the moment of rush while you are actually in battle. This ofc isn't any kinda issue when you're on a PC, because kb has more buttons than the xbox controller.

Hopefully this bullshit gets somehow solved.

Given the fact that the majority of people that play COD/BF do so for the multiplayer, it's safe to assume that they decision to have loadouts in MP is to attract the COD/BF players. I hope there is a mp mode that is straight up death match with no loadouts or classes. Or I hope we can a full set of moding tools so the community can create a DM mode complete with the best of the best DM maps from previous Id games.

Fulgrim said:

Given the fact that the majority of people that play COD/BF do so for the multiplayer, it's safe to assume that they decision to have loadouts in MP is to attract the COD/BF players.

It almost certainly is, but those players have no reason to switch to Doom 4; they'll just keep playing CoD and BF. :/

Ghastly_dragon said:

It almost certainly is, but those players have no reason to switch to Doom 4; they'll just keep playing CoD and BF. :/

Just put it this way, the more people we can get to stray from CoD and every other damn military shooter the better.

As for the loadouts, everyone needs to chill. The MP is literally at alpha stage and there's obviously going to be alot more thrown in from then to now. Lets not bust out the pitchforks yet. Far as we know loadouts could be a team based thing only with traditional DM being just that. Or maybe loads are included in all modes but there's still other weapons to pickup. We really don't know what changes they'll make.

To be honest, loadouts in MP aren't that big a deal because most players usually stick with 2-3 weapons anyway. In the case of Quake, it was rocket launcher and railgun. Everything else was secondary.