Why loadouts suck in Quake Live, and how to fix it in Doom 4

I've been a Doomn fan for a very long time, whereas Quake was something I didn't really start to play until last year. I grew somewhat addicted to Quake but it has some frustrating limitations, namely the loadouts that came to the game mere days or weeks since I installed Quake Live.

Dom 4 has loadouts too, and I know there's a thread about that but I wanted to write a somewhat coherent analysis here. So here are some of my bullet points:

1: No learning curve. You don't get to learn levels properly or where weapons are if you can just pick what guns you want to use.

2: Some weapons suck to start with and you wonder why even bother? I dunno who would start with say, a grenade launcher in QL and I dunno if Doom 4 will do those mistakes too.

3: Spawn frags. The ironic thing here is that in defense of loadouts I often hear "It's to make it accessible to new players! Give them a chance so they won't the constnatly spawn-fragged!" Bullshit. I didn't play Q3 online when it was new (I did play the PS2 version though) but I did play similar games as a kid and the addition of loadouts have spawn fragged me personally more than ever fucking before. You don't get to learn where the damn guns are or any kind of map control if everyone else can just insta-kill you with a damn rocket launcher or lightning gun (I HATE what loadouts have done to the LG).

4: Ammo. One big mistake with starting weapons in QL is giving you barely any ammo to the weapon(s) you pick for loadout. And if you're new and not very good chances are you're going to miss more than you hit, so then you'll find yourself facing an enemy at point black range with a rocket launcher but then OH SHIT IT RAN OUT OF AMMO BECAUSE I'M NOT A FUCKING EXPERT SNIPER AND NOW I'M DEAD FUCK.



So should loadouts be done away with completely in multiplayer? I dunno. I mean, I prefer no loadouts but I guess that technically it can work if it's handled with care. But can it really be called old-school, then?

I might add more points to make my case here but I can't remember all of my intended points and more things might come to mind if I continue playing Quake Live. I'm just using this thread for constructive criticism on how I do NOT want Doom 4 to be like Quake Live with the loadouts. Bleh.

The last time I played Quake Live it worked the same like traditionale Quake 3 Arena, with weapon and ammo pickups at fixed places in the maps. I haven't re-installed QL yet since I bought myself a new computer.

How do the loadouts work in QL in addition with ammo pickups? Is there unified ammo now? Because only having 2 weapons but regular ammo placement would make it unbalanced. Or aren't there any ammo pickups at all? Like in Rocket Arena?

The loadouts in Quake isn't a limitation. You're not limited to those two weapons. You can still pick the rest of the weapons up on the level.

That being said, they did also add an additional ammo type which gives ammo to whatever weapon. Not sure if it's whatever weapon you got selected or if it gives ammo to all weapons you got. Because I never play with loadouts myself (I mostly play Duel which doesn't have loadouts at all).

Kelliegator here misses the bigger picture though. The loadouts are meant to let players get into the game running. The low ammo is supposed to facilitate that you have to move around the map and stack up your stock.
But most importantly. Quake isn't a friendly game to get into. Especially in todays market where every new fps is so much friendlier to get into simply because they done away with most of the things that makes up games like Quake. Which is why Quake and it's ilk are not really called FPS any longer. It's instead commonly referred to "Arena FPS". Simply because modern FPS games and the "Arena FPS" games are so far separated, that they are entirely different genres.

So it's not fair for the new players to be expected to have the background knowledge of arena shooters that everyone else who played games in the 90'ies had.

Also, there's a lot more to the meta game of Quake than finding the weapons in the map. And for a new player, there's a lot bigger priorities to learn how to play Quake rather than finding dem weppuns. Knowing where weapons spawn is the lowest tier of meta game in Quake. But that aspect hasn't been removed though. You still can find the other weapons in the map. And get a full stock of all the classic weapons.

But the best thing about the loadouts in QL is this, you don't have to use them. They are only enabled on public servers. Host your own server, or play Duel and you don't have to play with loadouts at all.

Thanks for the explanation, kristus. Sounds like the concept in QL is well balanced (I have to re-install it and try for myself).

I think it's generally a clever move when id Software takes their recent experience with Quake Live and creates something resultant for the new Doom multiplayer.

Quake Live also has ~130 maps. Expecting people to learn map layouts for that many is insane. The upcoming Steam release will have Workshop support for maps, too, so that number will shoot up even more. We've also changed it since the initial release: it's now just 1 weapon + the regular machinegun, still limited ammo so you do have to move around the map a little bit, and grenades aren't even a choice anymore. There's definitely a lot of reason to pick SG or Plasma, so you mostly can't go wrong with whatever weapon you pick.

There's certainly a lot that can be said for loadouts in Quake Live gameplay wise, but we definitely noticed a difference in how much time a new player spent on the game when we released on Steam. It went up on average to not even a full match (<10 minutes) to about an hour with the Steam release. Still pretty low, but it's an old game that is still monstrously hard to learn.

kristus said:

The loadouts in Quake isn't a limitation. You're not limited to those two weapons. You can still pick the rest of the weapons up on the level.

That being said, they did also add an additional ammo type which gives ammo to whatever weapon. Not sure if it's whatever weapon you got selected or if it gives ammo to all weapons you got. Because I never play with loadouts myself (I mostly play Duel which doesn't have loadouts at all).

Kelliegator here misses the bigger picture though. The loadouts are meant to let players get into the game running. The low ammo is supposed to facilitate that you have to move around the map and stack up your stock.
But most importantly. Quake isn't a friendly game to get into. Especially in todays market where every new fps is so much friendlier to get into simply because they done away with most of the things that makes up games like Quake. Which is why Quake and it's ilk are not really called FPS any longer. It's instead commonly referred to "Arena FPS". Simply because modern FPS games and the "Arena FPS" games are so far separated, that they are entirely different genres.

So it's not fair for the new players to be expected to have the background knowledge of arena shooters that everyone else who played games in the 90'ies had.

Also, there's a lot more to the meta game of Quake than finding the weapons in the map. And for a new player, there's a lot bigger priorities to learn how to play Quake rather than finding dem weppuns. Knowing where weapons spawn is the lowest tier of meta game in Quake. But that aspect hasn't been removed though. You still can find the other weapons in the map. And get a full stock of all the classic weapons.

But the best thing about the loadouts in QL is this, you don't have to use them. They are only enabled on public servers. Host your own server, or play Duel and you don't have to play with loadouts at all.

Interesting and thoughtful post, even if I may not agree entirely.

When I said "limiting" I didn't mean you were only limited to two guns, I know there are more you can pick up. I simply meant that I, personally at least, feel like loadouts don't provide a fair fight because everyone's using rocket launchers and lightning guns to fucking spawn frag you instantly before you really have a chance to do anything or learn anything, along with the ammo thing. I feel like loadout limits my abilities to learn anything and do anything worthwhile because I'm always spawn fragged.

However, the problem, I confess, maybe me only having played QL for about a year or so so I'm hardly a pro. But I don't know, I feel like I do fine on servers that don't have loadouts (except duel, I suck at duel) so it's something about the load outs I just can't get past. Maybe it's movements. I do fine in other retro or retro-style games like Reflex, too.

Still, this is Doom we're talking about and I really hope Doom multiplayer won't be crowded loadout servers like QL or that the loadouts will at least be more well balanced because I personally don't feel that load outs balance QL at all. :/

I get what yer saying but I kinda feel like I may have to agree to disagree. Either that or I suck at QL. I'll try not to suck at Doom. Better start playing the beta at day one. :V

I may have been wrong about map control, though. The Steam Workshop thing sponge brought up was a good point.

sponge said:

Quake Live also has ~130 maps. Expecting people to learn map layouts for that many is insane. The upcoming Steam release will have Workshop support for maps, too, so that number will shoot up even more. We've also changed it since the initial release: it's now just 1 weapon + the regular machinegun, still limited ammo so you do have to move around the map a little bit, and grenades aren't even a choice anymore. There's definitely a lot of reason to pick SG or Plasma, so you mostly can't go wrong with whatever weapon you pick.

There's certainly a lot that can be said for loadouts in Quake Live gameplay wise, but we definitely noticed a difference in how much time a new player spent on the game when we released on Steam. It went up on average to not even a full match (<10 minutes) to about an hour with the Steam release. Still pretty low, but it's an old game that is still monstrously hard to learn.

Hey Sponge, didn't know you had a user on these forums. Nice to see you here.
What you said about new users is interesting.

I just the other week met a new player that after playing me in half a match of duel exclaimed that the game was terribly unbalanced. He was a CS:GO player. And he wasn't even all that bad for being new to Quake. But he felt that the game was extremely unfair, and of course it is when you are new. In that case I could direct him to another game-mode that I felt that gave him more of a chance to get into it before quitting. But that is unfortunately far from the norm, and I don't know if he ever played since then or will play for that matter.

I like what you did with the loadouts. And I realize that you are very limited in what you can do with the game and the limited player base. The game is a mountain to climb skill wise, just to get to a point where you can play it decently well. Coupled with the smallish player base as well as the fact that the game is rather old and you got a very limited budget. It's hard to really get things done.

Unfortunately, the community at large isn't helping either. They can be quite uncooperative to put it (extremely) lightly.

kelliegator said:

Interesting and thoughtful post, even if I may not agree entirely.

I really can't tell you what your experiences is or isn't. Or where your ability with the game lies. You tell me yourself that you're a relatively new player to Quake Live and that gives me pause at one question.

Have you played Quake Live before the loadouts were a thing?

Again. I'm not trying to denigrate you or invalidate your position. I'm just trying to learn about your perspective.

kristus said:

I really can't tell you what your experiences is or isn't. Or where your ability with the game lies. You tell me yourself that you're a relatively new player to Quake Live and that gives me pause at one question.

Have you played Quake Live before the loadouts were a thing?

Again. I'm not trying to denigrate you or invalidate your position. I'm just trying to learn about your perspective.

Well, my memory's a bit fuzzy on that one but I have played on servers without load outs (when I can find them, that's kinda rare outside of CTF and instagib servers) and I feel that I fare much better on those. I know I got QL right before the big update that introduced load outs and when I would practice offline I'd always do it by turning off load outs in the console. I handle the game better without load outs.

Therefore, loadouts are a big turnoff for me and I hope Doom 4 has better balancing or the ability to not play with loadouts at all (which I think it will 'cause of snapmap).

Biggest problem with loadouts in QL is core of gameplay. If you cut something you must put something instead. QL still most hardcore FPS on market, with loadouts or without them - loadouts simply doesn't work, noobs still sucks versus high skilled players.

Call Of Duty isn't simple game too if you play in hard mod, but most popular modes has tons of content - killstreaks, great customization, badges, levels e t.c. If you understand how people need old school Doom you must do them something old school. What's problem with more than two guns? Console players can use D-pad to change weapons, why we must suffer from limitations?


P.S. Sorry for my bad english.

NoisM said:

Biggest problem with loadouts in QL is core of gameplay. If you cut something you must put something instead. QL still most hardcore FPS on market, with loadouts or without them - loadouts simply doesn't work, noobs still sucks versus high skilled players.

Call Of Duty isn't simple game too if you play in hard mod, but most popular modes has tons of content - killstreaks, great customization, badges, levels e t.c. If you understand how people need old school Doom you must do them something old school. What's problem with more than two guns? Console players can use D-pad to change weapons, why we must suffer from limitations?


P.S. Sorry for my bad english.

But if you use the D-pad then you have to let go of the left analog stick which means you can't move while switching which is Very Bad.

NoisM said:

Biggest problem with loadouts in QL is core of gameplay. If you cut something you must put something instead. QL still most hardcore FPS on market, with loadouts or without them - loadouts simply doesn't work, noobs still sucks versus high skilled players.

Call Of Duty isn't simple game too if you play in hard mod, but most popular modes has tons of content - killstreaks, great customization, badges, levels e t.c. If you understand how people need old school Doom you must do them something old school. What's problem with more than two guns? Console players can use D-pad to change weapons, why we must suffer from limitations?


P.S. Sorry for my bad english.

Well, the singleplayer mode in Doom seems to have a weapon wheel and I know I've always felt weapon wheels are the best way to change weapons in console shooters.

Not as good as a keyboard but good enough. Just use that and the problem is solved.

OK, gamepad has tons of buttons, tons of combinations. Cut all difficulties from gameplay is worst way to make a FPS game. Everybody knows how hard is Quake. Quake is Quake, another FPS games is much easier. Hype is dying so fast after new about loadout. That's fact.

NoisM said:

OK, gamepad has tons of buttons, tons of combinations. Cut all difficulties from gameplay is worst way to make a FPS game. Everybody knows how hard is Quake. Quake is Quake, another FPS games is much easier. Hype is dying so fast after new about loadout. It's fact.

Uuuh, it's not. Where do you get your "facts", YouTube comments?

Everywhere - esreality.net, youtube, my friends PC gamers. Whatever! If you made something like CoD it's always looks like bad copy. Sad but true. I know id can't made Doom only for PC, but easier doen't means better. At least, Doom isn't Call Of Duty.

DooM_RO said:

Uuuh, it's not. Where do you get your "facts", YouTube comments?

There certainly seems to be some deflation of hype on reddit recently.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/3fcufk/doom_pc_will_not_receive_additional_modding_tools/

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/3f94lo/doom_pc_will_not_receive_additional_modding_tools/

TheGamePhilosophe said:

There certainly seems to be some deflation of hype on reddit recently.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/3fcufk/doom_pc_will_not_receive_additional_modding_tools/

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/3f94lo/doom_pc_will_not_receive_additional_modding_tools/

So excitement is low simply because of Snapmap? What about everything else?

And for the record, I really don't care what people outside of Doomworld think. When I want opinions and impressions, this is the first place I check. Much more balanced discussions here. No hatemongering, no hating on Id for arbitrary reasons, no doomsaying, just rational discussions about what we see and why it works or does not work. I checked the reddit threads you linked and they are no better than the average YouTube comments. Just more hivemind nonsense. To me it seems like these people don't really think for themselves.

Maybe loadouts would be more tolerable if they were like Soldier of Fortune 2's when there's no weapon carry restrictions so you can still pick up additional weapons to what your picked loadout was while playing, but lose them when you die of course.

They said they'd think about it since it was their biggest piece of feedback. I suggest we wait until they clarify...same with snapmap.

Avoozl said:

Maybe loadouts would be more tolerable if they were like Soldier of Fortune 2's when there's no weapon carry restrictions so you can still pick up additional weapons to what your picked loadout was while playing, but lose them when you die of course.

Quake Live does that and I still don't like it but maybe it can be blamed on Quake III, which QL is based on, not being designed for load outs. Doom 4 seems to be so maybe load outs will be less terrible in that but I'd still prefer classic, VQ3 style gameplay; no load outs.

What are "loadouts"? I don't get it. When I google-search it I only get lengthy or unrelated articles. What do they do to gameplay?

printz said:

What are "loadouts"? I don't get it. When I google-search it I only get lengthy or unrelated articles. What do they do to gameplay?

You choose one or two weapons to start with.

I prefer the style of everyone starting with the same gun and having to navigate through the level to find new guns. I think it balances things better.

Quake Live's next update's changes have been revealed. Loadouts will be made optional and defaulted off. Doom 4 should do the same imo..

quakke said:

Quake Live's next update's changes have been revealed. Loadouts will be made optional and defaulted off. Doom 4 should do the same imo..

Interesting...

kristus said:

Also, there's a lot more to the meta game of Quake than finding the weapons in the map. And for a new player, there's a lot bigger priorities to learn how to play Quake rather than finding dem weppuns. Knowing where weapons spawn is the lowest tier of meta game in Quake.

This may be true for Quake, but not for Doom - Weapon placement knowledge is one of the key factors that allows the Doom DM pros to wreck shit. Again, there's far more to it than just that, but it's a key element of Doom DM, regardless of what Quake implemented.

Obviously there are an essentially unlimited number of DM maps for Doom and I find it to be great fun going into a big unknown DM wad and seeing who's the best at analyizng the map and it's item placement and using that to their advantage. If people don't want to do that, simply pick a more well known map. I just feel like that's a core element of competitive Doomin'.

The best way to "Work around" the loadouts is to make them optional. Some players can start loadout enabled servers, some players can start "pistol start" servers (though hopefully something better than a pistol.) Problem solved.

EDIT:

quakke said:

Quake Live's next update's changes have been revealed. Loadouts will be made optional and defaulted off. Doom 4 should do the same imo..

^Totally agree!

quakke said:

Quake Live's next update's changes have been revealed. Loadouts will be made optional and defaulted off. Doom 4 should do the same imo..

It's being discussed for certain modes/public configs in QL

I am pro-loadouts in the CTF-like or objective-based team modes where every team has its own "base". When you have a deathmatch game with random spawning then loadots suck donkey balls. Controlling weapon pickups on the map is a big part of multiplayer fun.

sponge said:

It's being discussed for certain modes/public configs in QL

LOADOUTS?
<syncerror> Loadouts are mostly being made optional, defaulted off, and easily enabled by either the server owner or via callvote.

http://esreality.com/post/2756038/quake-live-s-next-update-and-beyond/#

Orchid87 said:

I am pro-loadouts in the CTF-like or objective-based team modes where every team has its own "base". When you have a deathmatch game with random spawning then loadots suck donkey balls. Controlling weapon pickups on the map is a big part of multiplayer fun.

It can be also big part in CTF. Having map that revolves around weapon control. Loadouts would make that map obsolete..

quakke said:

LOADOUTS?
<syncerror> Loadouts are mostly being made optional, defaulted off, and easily enabled by either the server owner or via callvote.

http://esreality.com/post/2756038/quake-live-s-next-update-and-beyond/#

It can be also big part in CTF. Having map that revolves around weapon control. Loadouts would make that map obsolete..

I'm the other QL dev, FYI. Nothing has been finalized yet. Mostly doesn't imply removed, either.

sponge said:

I'm the other QL dev, FYI. Nothing has been finalized yet. Mostly doesn't imply removed, either.

I believe i never even said "removed" anytime. What i did say was this..

"Quake Live's next update's changes have been revealed. Loadouts will be made optional and defaulted off. Doom 4 should do the same imo.."

Granted, i would enjoy Removed alot but i know it has very small chance of that happening..