Secret areas should be visible, call me crazy

Xaser said:

there are always secrets behind waterfalls

Waterfalls (also lava, slime and other liquids) always have to get checked for secrets, it's the law.

^ Now that's a secret. Looks like I wont be hitting that exit switch...

vespa said:

Waterfalls (also lava, slime and other liquids) always have to get checked for secrets, it's the law.

How did I forget?

Thanks for the heads up.

I think it's worth remembering that not all secrets are supposed to be equal in difficulty.

Think about the soul sphere in E1M3 for example. If you don't know the trick it's quite difficult to reach, partly because multiple steps are required to uncover the entrance (press button, run down corridor to the platform just in time before it goes back up).

Another example is E1M7 where it's not obvious how you can get outside (and you have to make a certain amount of progress in the level before you can do so). In that case there's an offset texture inside the alcove that gives a hint, but I'd argue it's unnecessary.

Secrets like these are actually kind of nice, precisely because they require effort to reach. It can be quite satisfying, after having searched for a secret, to finally find the entrance.

Perhaps a good rule of thumb would be that it should always be possible to visually deduce that a secret exists (without wall-humping). You can distinguish between different types of secrets. For example there are alcove-type secrets (like the switch/backpack room near the start of E1M2) where some kind of visual indication that "secret is here" via a texture difference is necessary. But for the ones mentioned above, it's possible to deduce that a secret exists, because you can see it. The challenge is then to figure out where the entrance must be, and in that case a texture difference kind of spoils the hunt.

fraggle said:

Perhaps a good rule of thumb would be that it should always be possible to visually deduce that a secret exists (without wall-humping). You can distinguish between different types of secrets. For example there are alcove-type secrets (like the switch/backpack room near the start of E1M2) where some kind of visual indication that "secret is here" via a texture difference is necessary. But for the ones mentioned above, it's possible to deduce that a secret exists, because you can see it. The challenge is then to figure out where the entrance must be, and in that case a texture difference kind of spoils the hunt.

+1
As long as there's something, be it already being able to see the secret area but not being able to reach it yet, to not seeing the secret area at all and instead relying on visual clues like, offset textures, or a blue flame torch amongst a bunch of red ones, etc.

Wolf3D used to drive me crazy with all the no-hint secrets. Bashing my character face first into every wall made me want to bash my own head into my monitor.

I'm not going to necessarily endorse any opinions in this thread, but I will say that misalignments as hints are awful and item closet secrets should only be used so your map has an easy secret for those who don't want to go looking.

Playing With Fire said:

Wolf3D used to drive me crazy with all the no-hint secrets. Bashing my character face first into every wall made me want to bash my own head into my monitor.

Partially justified in the case of Wolf3D, because of this:



One of the most cryptic games ever made, Blue Ice, was also deliberatly cryptic to the extreme because of an alleged contest, which of course also never materialized.

When there's money prizes involved, paranoia goes through the roof. Now on some random lamer's PWADs...well...much less justified.

I dunno why people are allergic to secrets these days. It wasn't always like this. You guys would hate a lot of older DOS games that require very very subtle attention to detail to notice secrets.. Some of which are mandatory to progress.

Something cryptic that you have to find to progress kinda sucks, but if it's just for a sweet treasure like a blue armor or BFG... Well, the person who pays attention gets rewarded. That's always been Doom logic since the IWADs. There's not much more to say about it!

Doomkid said:

Something cryptic that you have to find to progress kinda sucks, but if it's just for a sweet treasure like a blue armor or BFG... Well, the person who pays attention gets rewarded. That's always been Doom logic since the IWADs. There's not much more to say about it!

If there's no visible cue, there's nothing to pay attention to. It can be subtle, but it should be something. People have pointed out examples, etc.

Doomkid said:

I dunno why people are allergic to secrets these days. It wasn't always like this. You guys would hate a lot of older DOS games that require very very subtle attention to detail to notice secrets.. Some of which are mandatory to progress.

Something cryptic that you have to find to progress kinda sucks, but if it's just for a sweet treasure like a blue armor or BFG... Well, the person who pays attention gets rewarded. That's always been Doom logic since the IWADs. There's not much more to say about it!

To me, it's an oxymoron to have a "necessary secret" in any map. I dislike maps that do that. Either don't flag the required area as a secret, or put the required area either out in the open (and easily accessible), or provide some alternate way around it.

An on an unrelated note, I also dislike secrets that aren't really secrets at all. Like those push walls in E2M3 that just provide a small shortcut back to a previous room. Those don't seem like a secret at all.

I too like secrets that are carefully hinted at. Doesnt need to be too obvious. I like it how it is done in the DooM IWADS. I mean there may be secrets that are not hinted at, but there are enough that have little hints.

More important for me is, the way through the level should be visible ... so far in the Master Levels, i encountered at least 2 instances where the way through the level felt like finding a secret. The Black Tower has one. I Honestly thought i found a secret area and thought "well thats a secret i dont want to visit".

I hope Final DooM and No Rest for the Living do not have these things going on.

Secrets should always be hinted somehow. Putting an unreachable area or room visible it is already a sign to the player that there's probably something nearby. Also I think that the reward should be somehow related of how difficult is to find the secret.

drygnfyre said:

But one "secret" that always bothered me was Silures from Eternal Doom, where you had to interact with a tree to open a door. It's certainly a secret, but I never liked it because there was no indication whatsoever that something like that was even possible.

If you look at that garden more closely the tree with the switch it's different from all the others.

karacho said:

I too like secrets that are carefully hinted at. Doesnt need to be too obvious. I like it how it is done in the DooM IWADS. I mean there may be secrets that are not hinted at, but there are enough that have little hints.

More important for me is, the way through the level should be visible ... so far in the Master Levels, i encountered at least 2 instances where the way through the level felt like finding a secret. The Black Tower has one. I Honestly thought i found a secret area and thought "well thats a secret i dont want to visit".

I hope Final DooM and No Rest for the Living do not have these things going on.

Ditto, Virgil.wad in Master Levels has a particularly bad example of this. You have to open this wall on the left to progess the level.



Sure, it doesn't look exactly the same as the rest of the wall, so that's something. But it's still awful level design. Mappers need to remember this is a run and gun game, and I was fighting monsters in that hallway.

I like clever stuff, but how are you supposed to enjoy Doom if you have to notice things as subtle as this? I'm going to stare at the wallpaper and press open anytime there's something asymmetrical or something? And I have to notice all this in the first place, to progess with the damn level no less.

Any level that require's a secret to progess should have a warning label on it. I'm actually about to play Final Doom for the first time (beating it anyway), so I'd also like a heads up if there are any maps like that. So I can look at the youtube ahead of time, really disrupts the flow to stop and watch youtube. =P

gaspe said:

If you look at that garden more closely the tree with the switch it's different from all the others.

It's a run and gun game, what are these mappers thinking. They need to realize the people playing aren't staring at every detail, making it and playing it are different things. At least make a couple of your secrets per map easier. We all have our pet peeves, and something about the way a lot of secrets are designed makes me want to do a George Costanza style rant. "We're living in a Doom SOCIETY!!!"

Couldn't that wall be, I dunno, slightly indented? Or brighten the pallet a few notches? See the way the bottom looks solid? It makes no sense for that to raise up and not be solid. And there's no reason to think what I want is in that hall, there's a whole level to wander around looking at. I'm sure plenty of people who played that level when it came out did not progress past that point. Did he think of that? For the record, I do dig other maps of his.

gaspe said:

Secrets should always be hinted somehow. Putting an unreachable area or room visible it is already a sign to the player that there's probably something nearby. Also I think that the reward should be somehow related of how difficult is to find the secret.

If you look at that garden more closely the tree with the switch it's different from all the others.

I understand that, I was referring more to the idea that a switch would even be hidden in a tree in the first place. If there's one constant in the Doom engine, it's that switches look like switches. That's one of the few cases where a switch is hidden because a player would have little reason to suspect that a piece of scenery could even be interacted with in the first place. I don't think any official Doom maps ever did such a scenario.

Of course, on the other hand, it makes sense in context. I believe that WAD made extensive use of large maps and unconventional ways of doing things, so likely it was expected that the player is already adapt to trying things they didn't think possible.

drygnfyre said:

I understand that, I was referring more to the idea that a switch would even be hidden in a tree in the first place. If there's one constant in the Doom engine, it's that switches look like switches. That's one of the few cases where a switch is hidden because a player would have little reason to suspect that a piece of scenery could even be interacted with in the first place. I don't think any official Doom maps ever did such a scenario.

Of course, on the other hand, it makes sense in context. I believe that WAD made extensive use of large maps and unconventional ways of doing things, so likely it was expected that the player is already adapt to trying things they didn't think possible.

Don't backpeddle, be strong. That choice was freakin' garbage. :P (I'm just sayin folks) [At least it sounds like that isn't a necessary one for the level]

Even in a weirder user level, there has to be some sense of internal logic. Knowing what you can or can't interact with is often one of the pitfalls.

There's probably a script to automatically hit the "use" button twenty times a second, and you can just automatically be hitting use on everything you touch. =P This is how some mappers want you to play anyway.

(edit: I was just playing another "Master Level", Geryon from Dr. Sleep. That texture for the needed secret door in that other map is all over the place in this one, and not used for secrets that I've seen so far. This only makes the one in Virgil even more annoying.)

I don't really understand mandatory secrets either. What is the mappers thought process in thinking that this is a good utilization of level progression? Surely in this instance it's not theoretically a secret if it's absolutely essential, surely? Secrets (at least in the way i see it) are rewards for the player for being observant. There are many people out there that don't care for finding secrets as it's more a luxury based system.

Secrets shouldn't be necessary to progress i feel. If people want to find them they will, but don't ever make it a requirement. It can severely ruin a maps flow... Unless the map is built around this.

Levels that are filled with mandatory secrets are an entirely different ball game. In this instance it's a gimmick rather than poor design choice, however it could still fall under the latter if not implemented decently.

"this is a run and gun game" is a patently retarded criticism of unusual types of progression. You claim to like clever stuff but fail to notice a differently textured wall and DON'T even consider trying to use it? Does something somehow fail to be clever if you can't figure it out immediately?

I like to do secrets that will reward the dedicated wall humper with a little bit extra. The map should be reasonably beatable without secrets, but secrets should give the player a little extra leeway for humping your walls.

SYS said:

I like to do secrets that will reward the dedicated wall humper with a little bit extra. The map should be reasonably beatable without secrets, but secrets should give the player a little extra leeway for humping your walls.

... So like this?

lol, sure.

Marcaek said:

"this is a run and gun game" is a patently retarded

Stopped reading there, you have nothing to say. We're talking about opinions on video game levels, not here insult eachother. And that's not a great vocab word to throw around.

Six said:

I don't really understand mandatory secrets either. What is the mappers thought process in thinking that this is a good utilization of level progression? Surely in this instance it's not theoretically a secret if it's absolutely essential, surely? Secrets (at least in the way i see it) are rewards for the player for being observant. There are many people out there that don't care for finding secrets as it's more a luxury based system.

Well said.

drygnfyre said:

I understand that, I was referring more to the idea that a switch would even be hidden in a tree in the first place. If there's one constant in the Doom engine, it's that switches look like switches. That's one of the few cases where a switch is hidden because a player would have little reason to suspect that a piece of scenery could even be interacted with in the first place. I don't think any official Doom maps ever did such a scenario.

Of course, on the other hand, it makes sense in context. I believe that WAD made extensive use of large maps and unconventional ways of doing things, so likely it was expected that the player is already adapt to trying things they didn't think possible.

You also have to keep in mind that Eternal Doom is, to some extent at least, inspired by Hexen, as it shows in a couple of textures, for example. And anyone that has played Hexen knows that you can actually interact with trees, among other things (like windows).

After reading replies here, I gotta say my opinion has changed somewhat.

I still think secrets should never be mandatory, but people aren't all looking for the same thing in secrets. Variety is a spice of life. That's also why they are secrets. Admittedly, I am a little ocd about finding secrets on maps I like, like most recently gaspe's The Backyard, and I do get frustrated when I cannot find them. But when you DO find a secret that is really tough, like every one in that map, it is very fulfilling. I didn't need any secrets to beat the map, so I cannot be upset that I found literally 0 on my first play through. It adds a little replay value; though I must say, if gaspe incorporated some small element of randomness or multiple enemy sets like in the Fathers Day map I made, the difficulty of the secrets would have added much more to the replay value of it since it would then already have replay value implemented and you wouldn't be going back to play it solely for the secrets.

Zed said:

You also have to keep in mind that Eternal Doom is, to some extent at least, inspired by Hexen, as it shows in a couple of textures, for example. And anyone that has played Hexen knows that you can actually interact with trees, among other things (like windows).

That's a bit of a stretch there. Not everybody playing a Doom wad is a Hexen fan. And personally, I did play it nearly 20 years ago (on n64), and I don't remember these things you mentioned.

I don't quite get the need to 100% defend the levels as infallible. Not everybody has to like every choice, and they're not playing it "wrong" or being "retarded" for example. Which is a lame way to look at things anyway.

Fonze said:

After reading replies here, I gotta say my opinion has changed somewhat.

So you no longer think secrets should have a hint? Personally I do think that they should, design wise it makes sense. And if you want especially obscure ones for wall humping, you can still include some of both in a level.

PsychoGoatee said:

It's a run and gun game, what are these mappers thinking. They need to realize the people playing aren't staring at every detail

The more puzzle-oriented stuff (as well as the secrets) actually requires you to pay more attention to the environment.
I think that in particular the switch-tree was a really clever thing, it shows that (for sure in limited ways) you can interact with things.

I think the secrets that bother me the most are those that are activated by what would otherwise be completely mundane or behaviors that you didn't even know could trigger a secret.

I'm specifically referencing Map 01 of Doom 64. I am genuinely curious how anyone not reading a guide or using the Internet in 1997 was supposed to figure out accessing the secret exit. Granted, I don't recall that map as well as I'd like... Did some kind of noise (like a wall opening) play when that last barrel was blown up? Did something within the level make any kind of subtle hint that barrel destruction even had an effect on the map? Because if not, that's a perfect example of the worst kind of secret. Again, to me, secrets should always be setup in such a way that there is some kind of visual or audible clue that it's accessing (like in E1M3, being able to look into the secret rooms, or in E1M1, hearing that secret elevator lower).

A good example of a secret done right would be at the very end of Map 01 in TNT: Evilution. Just before hitting the exit switch, you'll hear two lowering sounds right behind you: it was the platforms holding the chainguns (where the chaingunners were). It's subtle and if you press that switch too fast, you miss it, but it works. There's an audible clue that makes you stop and think for just a second.

And a bad example: E1M4 of Knee-Deep in zDoom. It had a room (protected by a yellow key, IIRC) that wouldn't open, because the map didn't have a yellow keycard. Unless you got to the very end of the level. Similar to Map 01 above, just before getting onto the exit portal, that door would open. There was no indication whatsoever that could happen, and you're lead to believe that's simply a fake door due to lack of a yellow keycard. I see that as the Map 01 of Doom 64 equivalent. Taking a completely mundane action, tying some secret to it and yet not providing any hints or clues to the player. I only even know of this particular example because I had to look up online where the yellow keycard was in E1M4.

gaspe said:

The more puzzle-oriented stuff (as well as the secrets) actually requires you to pay more attention to the environment.

That's not what I'm saying. I am looking around, I'm observant. I've beaten stuff like Suspended In Dusk which is great, and it's like a labyrinth to get back to where another door was, etc. It's like memorizing a complex schematic sometimes playing Doom, I know this, I'm an intelligent life form like anyone else.

I mentioned these issues in the context of how I was annoyed by Dr. Sleep's choice in that level Virgil.wad. A regular wallpaper texture that he uses elsewhere in his levels, in one random hallway in map where I have plenty of places to look. I have to press open on this to progress with the level. THAT is very easy to miss. And a very very bad design decision, in my humble opinion.

Now granted, when that's an extreme case, usually secrets are optional. But in hard levels, they can really help a less experienced player with some goodies. So is stands to reason that maybe half of your secrets could be noticable, visabily noticeable while you're running at fast Doom speeds down a hallway shooting a Revenant. Or at least a couple.

There are difficulty settings for combat, but map designers are only making secrets for the most "Gamer OCD" (I don't say that in a negative way) Doom players. It's just to me a waste, poorly done, poor choices, it bugs me. It limits the appeal. That's my opinion.

PsychoGoatee said:

Stopped reading there, you have nothing to say.

Not to someone with a mental politeness filter, no I don't. Enjoy having your hand held.