Classic Horseshoe Level Design

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/HamishTodd/20150217/236516/Level_design_Dooms_quothorseshoequot.php

I managed to come across this (rather old) article discussing the "Classic Horseshoe Level Design" that John Romero was quoted saying in the 'devs play doom' videos a few months back.

Am I mistaken or is the author of this article completely wrong? I thought the horseshoe design referred to the general layout of the map, where you start at one point of the horse shoe, and the exit is the other point. The outside area in the middle is the area in the center that helps visualize that.

edit: nvm there's an addendum at the bottom that corrects it.

lol what a nub. Also "The art and business of making video games"?

When the fuck will people realize that videogames are fucking games, this shit has been going on too long now...I mean I've probably said something contradictory somewhere in my whole time being alive but holy shit.

This is just a random blog post by someone -- it holds no more weight than you or I posting the same thing (see disclaimer at the top of the article, too).

Hoodie said:

When the fuck will people realize that videogames are fucking games, this shit has been going on too long now...I mean I've probably said something contradictory somewhere in my whole time being alive but holy shit.

wat

Hoodie said:

When the fuck will people realize that videogames are fucking games, this shit has been going on too long now...I mean I've probably said something contradictory somewhere in my whole time being alive but holy shit.

I like designing levels for Doom so reading things about level design helps me.

Hoodie, you should probably include some kind of subtle indication that you're joking. Otherwise, people might think you're being serious.

I'm just saying guys that there's a lot of talk about videogames when really all a game should be is a game. I don't know I'm probably being close-minded but really all I'd want to hear about videogames from is people who actually make good shit, not someone who just played the game. I just don't get why there's so much talk about fucking games, I mean there's fucking college courses on "BANG BANG SHOT THE BAD GUY" I mean "talking" in a designer sense, I love talking about how we shot the lost soul and it exploded in one shot, cause I'm stupid. I like listening to John Romero or Tom Hall talk about how they made Doom but I don't wanna read some article from some guy who just played the game, like all the articles are ridiculous to me, sorry if this enraged you or something.

Edit : Added some "clarification" stuff.

I also don't understand why people talk about video games so much. Anyway, thanks for reading my post on this forum for talking about video games.

Isn't this "horseshoe" design just a way to bend a linear level to fit in a square? Old games like Wolfenstein 3D enforced this square frame. Tom Hall's levels also look like they're confined in imaginary rectangles too. Anyway, I fail to see what's so innovative about this. It does help to create side detours, much easier than if the map were a straight line.

nice article

printz said:

Isn't this "horseshoe" design just a way to bend a linear level to fit in a square?

I understand that horseshoe is a first step to create a more 3D space, where you see later parts of the level from the earlier parts. Horseshoe shape can very effectively be combined with loop designs and with that can be part of more non-linear level design.

Tetzlaff said:

I understand that horseshoe is a first step to create a more 3D space

I see horseshoe as a step from 1D space to 2D space. :)

Hoodie are your comments based on game talk in general? Or is it aimed directly at those who produce the article, the interviewer or developer themselves?

In a developer's point of view I totally can understand and appreciate the passion to talk about even the most subtle things to achieve their goals. For a player it's a short fluent moment of fun but to achieve such a small moment the developer had to be creative, practical, problem-solve, play-test or in other words invest lots of time, effort and passion in every part of the level / game to create the results. So for a Developer it's totally justified.

For an interviewer, it's his job and interest to get the extra small details, stories and mindset from the developer on his media to satisfy the more serious fans who already heard everything else and would like to know more about the game and its developer in depth.

As for the person who wrote the article. I didn't pay attention to when it was made and his rationale for creating it. For all we know, he has a quota of articles to release and this was one of many to reach his goal. Perhaps his interest in Doom has returned since many years ago and we are witnessing a noob beginning to explore and take interest in the story behind Doom. In a way Hoodie, you sharing opinions and thoughts on a Doom World community is contradicting your opinion about "A game is a game get over it". Whatever you may have to say could of been said and heard by many people before but it doesn't mean your opinion is pointless.

With your point of view, even mentioning a loophole or a cliffhanger in any movie / T.V. series is stupid and should only be taken in face value.

When the fuck will people realize that books are fucking words, this shit has been going on too long now...I mean I've probably said something contradictory somewhere in my whole time being alive but holy shit.

The worst design is figure-8. God, I don't know how many hundred of DM maps I've played that are figure-8.

TheCupboard said:

The worst design is figure-8. God, I don't know how many hundred of DM maps I've played that are figure-8.

This is the most legitimate statement in this thread so far. I guess it's supposed to be like a buffer between having a straight up arena and a map with some extra exploration in it. But you're right. In the end, it just comes off as half-assed and lazy.

What about mutant hunchback doberman with a severe case of hemorrhoids level design? Truly, a Doom classic.

TheCupboard said:

The worst design is figure-8. God, I don't know how many hundred of DM maps I've played that are figure-8.

Heh, I once saw a Quake 3 "deathmatch" in such a figure-8 arena, where one player exploited the spawning pattern's timing and the arena's shape, and practically ran around the figure-8 by spawncamping everybody else at EXACTLY the same pace as they respawned, by shooting them in the back at point blank WITHOUT EVER STOPPING RUNNING. Truly, an epic moment in "1337 pr0 fux0r c0mp3t1t1ve" gaming.

Jaxxoon R said:

When the fuck will people realize that books are fucking words, this shit has been going on too long now...I mean I've probably said something contradictory somewhere in my whole time being alive but holy shit.

Omg.

Chezza - I pretty much mean anyone paid to talk about videogames, or anyone who is giving a "deep insight" into a videogame and writing an article like this. There doesn't need to be all this nonsense for games, when really you can learn anything from the people who actually made the game or talking to other people who play it. I don't know, I'm not good with words and I tend to just make myself look retarded so I'm gonna shut up now.

Hoodie said:

so I'm gonna shut up now.

I'm glad

@OP: cool article, even if the author misinterpreted the horseshoe design. they still came up with a lot of interesting points.

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the whole point of the horseshoe design to give the player more of a visible sense of progression? As opposed to a map that just keeps going straight ahead where it's not quite so obvious where it ends.

MetroidJunkie said:

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the whole point of the horseshoe design to give the player more of a visible sense of progression? As opposed to a map that just keeps going straight ahead where it's not quite so obvious where it ends.

Pretty much. The Valve Development Community has a article on this, calling this shape a "loop". Effectively, the major benefit to this sort of design is that, without including any sort of backtracking or indeed even any non-forward movement, you can give the player insight to where they started from almost any point in the level. They can just look out a window and see where they started, giving them a sense of how far they've come.