Dying

I have to ask, either on most first playthroughs of maps or returns to already played maps, how frequently do you die? Do you consider dying a usual trial-and-error ordeal? Do you expect that a good map should challenge you without ever killing you? Is dying a usual component of your gameplay playthrough or is it just a reminder that the map is unfair and its time to quit? Would you argue that experienced or aggressive players die more often than casual/cautious players?

Personally, i often play maps with the assumption that I'm definitely going to die at least once. If the map I'm playing is perceived to be difficult, (either by me or by reviewers) I sometimes utilize the fact that I can start the map over an infinite number of times to start the map doing some reconnaissance scouting around, awakening monsters and activating traps to get a foresight on what will happen in the future and get a better understanding of the map.

What is your opinion on dying (in doom)?

On playthroughs I always save in case of death. On playtests, I start from the beginning. And when I'm just playing for fun (rarely) I'll constantly use resurrect. I expect challenging maps to be able to do a lot of damage either with or without turning me into a space cadaver. A game that makes me die a lot because of design just flat out pisses me off and I stop playing it.
er I guess that's it.

I die constantly. I also save constantly to make up for it, which probably makes me a terrible player. :P

I die constantly, but I'm a moron and sometimes forget to save for long periods. Then I put the wad down, take a breath, and come back the next day.

Death counts can vary, but on tough maps I do sometimes view it as trial and error, and a challenging map should result in more deaths via my own mistakes or miscalculations than mainly inescapable traps. Still, in some maps it is a whole lot of fun to edge forward seconds at a time through a huge fight until I can get it all correct in one go. That can be rewarding so long as the fight has enough logic that you can begin formulating and iterating on a plan of action immediately.

Sometimes I pick up whatever game and just play it with no saves to first death. After that I usually quit, except for games w smart autosaves like hl. But if I want to play it from start to finish I can decide - whether it will be a challenge with map restarts and no saves or just save sometimes before tough moments

My death ratio seems to be directly linked to the number of hitscan enemies (Looking at you, Chaingun Commandos) in any given WAD.

Not a long time ago I used to care, but not anymore. When challenges are well-crafted and interesting enough to be worth retrying and figuring them out - I'll take whatever number of deaths I have to suffer to eventually prevail. In these circumstances, deaths mean that I suck, not that the mapper is unfair or some other lame excuse egoistic whiners like to stick to so much.

most common causes of dying for me.

-hitscan enemies
-swarms of projectiles
-being unable to avoid archie attacks
-doors
-mistiming of the rocket launcher
-stupid teleport traps where a cyberdemon appears and immediately shoots a rocket at me point blank in the span of a millisecond. Or basically any monster that appears directly behind me
-death exits
-staying still to catch my breath only for a stealth rocket/projectile to hit me when I'm not looking or hearing anything.

dying sucks ass. I don't get anything out of it either.

Do you expect that a good map should challenge you without ever killing you?

Yes

I always thought it would be cool for the game to keep a tally of the number of deaths it takes to get through a map, at least for people like me who use saves. Having a record like that would give you something to try and beat on difficult maps, while still having the stress-free fun of saving whenever you like.

I die fairly habitually, to every cupboard/teleport trap in a WAD at least once guaranteed and occasionally to wandering monsters. if a map set has Plasma Marines I have probably died on it sufficiently to make me cheat lol. that's ok - I think there should be maps which are too hard for me and I support death exits to bookend episodes, etc

I still die a lot going back to pistol start IWAD maps I like. Chasm and Gotcha are the main culprits, which I always find hilarious because of the huge expanses of unpopulated space those maps are known for.

(i probably once died in Chex Quest episode 3)

I've picked up on the habit of using a hotkey to resurrect since I use GZDoom to play, and when I'm trying to play seriously it still happens like once or twice without thinking but I try not to and sometimes restart the map all over. I forget to save for long periods sometimes, and on a few occasions keep doing a trial and error approach for really tough battles until I do it right.

At least a quarter or maybe half of my playtime is really just loading a map up, playing some, noclipping around, and just trying to look over it and move on.

Death is not a big deal. If I die, I almost always consider it to be because of a fault in my own play and i'll just restart and try again. Sometimes if a map is very long, I can get a bit irritated or disheartened after making it 25 minutes in and dying, especially if there's a very harsh trap after a long period of relatively straightforward play. In that case i'll either take a break or just move on to the next map and try again later.

Sometimes if i'm stuck in a long map and there's an encounter that feels like an impassable roadblock, i'll cave in and play with a save before the difficult segments until I work out a strategy. Once I feel a bit more confident, i'll then go back and try to beat it without saving. I don't really consider myself to have beaten a level properly unless I can play through it without saving.

Playing this way has forced me to think strategically about combat scenarios, my resources and the space available in maps. This has led to a noticeable improvement in my play and ultimately to me dying far less often in new maps.

Getsu Fune said:

Yes

Doesn't that make your supposed challenge an illusion altogether though ?

Admittedly, redoing the same parts over and over can be frustrating, so if I successfully manage a section twice, I'll usually resort to save-scumming. Then again some maps have such a continuous flow that they don't really lend themselves to that kind of chopped up progression.

I don't understand aversions to dying in the game, especially if it's the design of the map set like with death exits. I expect that I'll die and will judge my save games depending on how much I'm enjoying myself and how long the level is.

That said I think there is a place for easy maps that are feasible to play without saves. If I had enough time I would play all maps without saves as it makes surviving more fun.

To add on to my earlier thoughts, there isn't a strong correlation between number of deaths and fun factor for me. I might die a zillion times and have a blast (see:combat shock 2 or zanzan maps) or i might never die at all and get bored/annoyed out of my mind (insert bad example here). Fun factor is an independent thing.

mouldy said:

I always thought it would be cool for the game to keep a tally of the number of deaths it takes to get through a map, at least for people like me who use saves. Having a record like that would give you something to try and beat on difficult maps, while still having the stress-free fun of saving whenever you like.

I've thought about "player lives" too...

I think we/source ports should change how Doom works.

You know the Soulsphere? We could change that to 1-up, where your collection of Soulspheres gives you each one resurrection, at maybe 40% health.

Available Soulspheres could be displayed in the Hud like arms/keys.

It would mean the SS will give only 40%, but it return you get to make one fatal mistake, something that will be particularly beneficial to slaughter-maps and awkward traps.

Exceptions for teleport-deaths, and any time the player gets gibbed.

I have it in my head I'm not allowed to save during a level, I gotta do the whole thing in one go. I feel like this has made me a better player seeing as I don't die that often when using WASD+Mouse Look. Lately I've been doing Wads with original controls and I tend to be dying quite a bit. BUT I NEED THE CHALLENGE.

Also when playing Co-op I die a ton, but most of it is non-monster related.

Xaser said:

I die constantly. I also save constantly to make up for it, which probably makes me a terrible player. :P

This is pretty much my answer also, although it depends on the wad's difficulty. Just add raging at Revenants sometimes.

I do my best to play without saving, though on longer maps I'll usually cave in and save occasionally. I die a decent amount, though it really depends on the map.

Death is totally undesirable in Doom. I rarely save — I only do at certain checkpoints and when I'm really interested to progress. But most of the time I take the challenge to survive entire levels. If I die, I'm forced to either replay a good chunk of the level, or quit. I often quit and decide to try again another day.

On nightmare skill however, death is more of a trial-and-error thing, since I'm supposed to learn the level before I can take a best route.

depends on the size of the map.

Under 100 monsters: I save rarely unless the map is difficult.
101-199: Save maybe one to three times. Maybe a little more.
200+: I consider these larger maps and I tend to tend save more frequently.

Despite the length of time I've been playing DOOM, I'm not the best at FPS and I don't like redoing areas.

Xaser said:

To add on to my earlier thoughts, there isn't a strong correlation between number of deaths and fun factor for me. I might die a zillion times and have a blast (see:combat shock 2 or zanzan maps) or i might never die at all and get bored/annoyed out of my mind (insert bad example here). Fun factor is an independent thing.

I think a balance is optimal here.If I die too frequently, I might get frustrated.

I used to play defensively, and slowly, and so I'd save multiple times per level, because when you play slowly like that, it sucks to have fifteen minutes of progress wiped out by some mistake. From that perspective, I can see why people think dying sucks.

Eventually, I transitioned to playing Doom more aggressively, and with that came a more carefree attitude toward death. It's fun running headlong into a map with no knowledge of whether or not I'll be able to make it out of any given encounter, and then over a few runs, building an understanding of the level and how to most effectively tackle it. Short-to-medium-sized levels lend themselves to this best, I find.

Now I mostly only save if I have to take a long break from playing, and I want to remember where to pick up from when I return.

Depends if John is being a dick or not.

Xaser said:

To add on to my earlier thoughts, there isn't a strong correlation between number of deaths and fun factor for me. I might die a zillion times and have a blast (see:combat shock 2 or zanzan maps) or i might never die at all and get bored/annoyed out of my mind (insert bad example here). Fun factor is an independent thing.

Pretty much this to be honest. A map can be very hard but as long as it isn't unfair or grindy then I will have a blast. There are much easier maps which I find boring if they lack an atmospheric punch. So the relationship between difficulty and fun factor isn't that great for me, other factors are more important.

Depends on a lot of things. Enemy count in a single room, weapons and ammo available. room to maneuver, whether or not their's a Cyberdemon. I can't fight Cybers very well, and as such maps that use them in small arenas or in excess or to the extent one would use a Baron, I just get turned off and leave, and usually call the designer a fuck tart, regardless of how good the rest of the level was. Death can be frustrating.

I usually play cautiously enough to avoid death. This makes finishing maps take longer than if I were more reckless, however. Used to be a savescummer a couple years ago, but decided to only save at infrequent key points instead.

I play a lot of (G)ZDoom maps, so my normal way of dying is through some bullshit gimmick death trap with Archies and lazars and feck knows what else implemented by some newbie mapper trying to do too much too soon.

I play to avoid death within every encounter, hoping it will never happen. But I do make mistakes or under-estimate the challenge. I hate replaying the same moment and want to feel like I'm progressing well.

Usually if I die due to my negligence then I'm fine with it, assuming I have saved it not too long ago. But if a dick-move ambush kills me while I was in good health then I just get frustrated and blame the map design.

0 or 1-2 reckless/trap deaths, an easy map good for -fast demos. 3-7 deaths a decent challenge, rough for -fast demos. 12+ deaths is a hard map and probably wont be able to make a -fast demo.

Only use saves on very few maps right before a specific area. I practice these saves until I can beat that area every time, then demo entire map.