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The Doommer

Icon of Sin

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As all we know , Icon of Sin , Final Boss , Demon-Spitter , Whatever people call it , is the final boss of Doom II & Final Doom. But :

1.Some textures ? This is a bug , You can put an icon of sin textures in your wad without the boss brain and it will act like a regular texture. too bad

2. not moving ? Boring then , a boss must be able to move around and damage the doomguy with more weapons , not just throwing monsters.

I know that the Brutal Doom creator made a moving and not texture-based Icon of Sin , but why id didn't make a better one ?
it's too bad for a famous character to be recreated by a non id-relative programmer.

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1) They ARE just regular textures, so that's what I would expect. The 'important' parts are the boss brain, the monster spawner, and the spawner targets. You can use those in your own wads all you like, with or without the icon textures.

2) Yeah, I agree that attacking a stationary texture a bit lame. Perhaps it could've been cooler with some rudimentary scripted animation to make it look more alive. I also think the icon idea can be put to much better use than the lift / rocket launcher timing gimmick in Doom 2. But I don't think a boss NEEDS to be or do anything, though.

Id didn't make a better icon of sin because they didn't need to, and because they were already thinking about making huge bosses more elegantly with their next game, using real 3D. For Doom 2, they were more interested in exploring cool concepts already feasible in the existing engine.

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Mithran Denizen said:

1) They ARE just regular textures, so that's what I would expect. The 'important' parts are the boss brain, the monster spawner, and the spawner targets. You can use those in your own wads all you like, with or without the icon textures.


I know , but a Boss is not texture-based !

Mithran Denizen said:

But I don't think a boss NEEDS to be or do anything, though.


None of Wolf3D , SOD , etc bosses were just some textures with an object inside !
It is a Boss , Boss is a hard to kill enemy or at least a more strong enemy that the others. but Icon of Sin is not strong or hard to kill at all !!!

Mithran Denizen said:

Id didn't make a better icon of sin because they didn't need to, and because they were already thinking about making huge bosses more elegantly with their next game, using real 3D. For Doom 2, they were more interested in exploring cool concepts already feasible in the existing engine.

Yes , but wasn't a moving Icon of Sin reachable with the existing engine ?
They could create the Moving icon of sin as they created Cyberdemon , Spider Mastermind , etc

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We can solve the problem saying that the icon of sin is not a boss, it is not a monster, it is just... an icon. Of sin. You fight about the monsters spawned by this icon.

Thinking about it, even Quake final boss just stays at the center of the map doing nothing... so maybe it is not an absolute law that all boss must move around.

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Angry Saint said:

We can solve the problem saying that the icon of sin is not a boss, it is not a monster, it is just... an icon. Of sin. You fight about the monsters spawned by this icon.


Even John Romero isn't agree with you.

Angry Saint said:

even Quake final boss just stays at the center of the map doing nothing... so maybe it is not an absolute law that all boss must move around.

Quake final boss ? That was the worst boss i saw in my life !
Just telefragging Shub-Niggurath was the worst idea...
The only challenge was the Shamblers & Vores.
Quake was nothing but a Id Tech 1 version of Doom with some new weapons & entirely replaced monsters...


And also confronting Shub-Niggurath was similar to confronting Icon of Sin in Doom II...

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The Doommer said:

I know , but a Boss is not texture-based !

Yeah, this one is.

None of Wolf3D , SOD , etc bosses were just some textures with an object inside !

No, most of those bosses are actually even lamer than the icon of sin. They all behave very similarly and take essentially the same tactics to defeat, which gets kind of boring after the first few. Wolf3D bosses also only have front angled sprites, so they're ALMOST as flat as the IoS anyway.

It is a Boss , Boss is a hard to kill enemy or at least a more strong enemy that the others. but Icon of Sin is not strong or hard to kill at all !!!

Lameness aside, the icon is harder to fight than any of the boss levels in Wolf3D.


Yes , but wasn't a moving Icon of Sin reachable with the existing engine ?
They could create the Moving icon of sin as they created Cyberdemon , Spider Mastermind , etc

I'm glad they tried something fresh, instead of just giving us a slightly stronger, slightly larger cyberdemon. The mastermind already borders on being too large for the game, and there's only so big they can make a simple sprite-based monster and have it look right and work effectively.

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Mithran Denizen said:

No, most of those bosses are actually even lamer than the icon of sin. They all behave very similarly and take essentially the same tactics to defeat, which gets kind of boring after the first few.


Agree with you , but not Death Knight & Angel of Death !!!

Mithran Denizen said:

Wolf3D bosses also only have front angled sprites, so they're ALMOST as flat as the IoS anyway.


Wolf3D & SOD didn't have any multiplayer support & Infight ! Don't forget that !

Mithran Denizen said:

Lameness aside, the icon is harder to fight than any of the boss levels in Wolf3D.


No.
What about General Fettgesicht ?
What about Dr. Schabbs ?
What about the bosses i mentioned above ?

Mithran Denizen said:

I'm glad they tried something fresh, instead of just giving us a slightly stronger, slightly larger cyberdemon. The mastermind already borders on being too large for the game, and there's only so big they can make a simple sprite-based monster and have it look right and work effectively.


Couldn't they create the Real Icon of Sin themselves ?
I said the way they created Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind , not a version of Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind

Da Werecat said:

Someone update the relevant article real quick kthx.

Not engine bug dude !

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Actually the IoS textures have some nice parts to use for computers or some machineries.

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DMGUYDZ64 said:

Doom uses a very old, outdated and cheap engine, this is one of the reasons why the Final boss sucks .

Not a good reason.

Why Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind don't suck ? They were bosses specially in The Ultimate Doom...

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The Doommer said:

Not a good reason.

Why Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind don't suck ? They were bosses specially in The Ultimate Doom...


Can you post less, please?

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The Doommer said:

Agree with you , but not Death Knight & Angel of Death !!!

Yes.

Couldn't they create the Real Icon of Sin themselves ?
I said the way they created Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind , not a version of Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind

No.

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well they could have done a new boss monster that was not stationary, but maybe they didnt have time, or didnt care. either way the icon of sin sucks

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AD_79 said:

Can you post less, please?

What is the problem here ?
I registered to ask questions & talk...
This is a forum

Anyway , you have posted even more than me !

Mithran Denizen said:

No.

Why ?
Real icon of sin made under Engine limitations...

raymoohawk said:

well they could have done a new boss monster that was not stationary, but maybe they didnt have time, or didnt care. either way the icon of sin sucks

That can be the case...

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The Doommer said:

Why ?
Real icon of sin made under Engine limitations...


if your refering to the one that sgmarkiv did than no, it was done for zdoom iirc

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raymoohawk said:

if your refering to the one that sgmarkiv did than no, it was done for zdoom iirc

ZDoom added some features to Doom Engine , but they're almost the same!

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CyberDemonEmpress said:

Never ending questions...

What question ?
It is a Discussion...

CyberDemonEmpress said:

Any mildly interesting thread you create seems to end up like this.

As i said before , i'm free to talk. This is a Forum

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Dear The Doommer,

Please stop posting multiple times in a row. Learn to use the Edit button.

Please stop posting every single little question or comment that comes into your head. It gets very annoying.

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Bloodshedder said:

Dear The Doommer,

Please stop posting multiple times in a row. Learn to use the Edit button.

Please stop posting every single little question or comment that comes into your head. It gets very annoying.

OK
I'll try to reduce my posts but :

1.I use edit button many times...
2.Well , i need to ask my questions. I can't carry them to my grave !

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The Doommer said:

OK
I'll try to reduce my posts but :

1.I use edit button many times...
2.Well , i need to ask my questions. I can't carry them to my grave !

Sometimes it can be best to think for a few minutes before posting a question as it'll give you time to determine whether or not the question is worth merit. After that, to check the Search feature for the forums to see if that question has already been answered. If the question is good and it hasn't been asked before, then by all means ask it.

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The Doommer said:

ZDoom added some features to Doom Engine , but they're almost the same!

But not actually the same.

The icon fight by Sergeant Mark IV relies on having both freelook, and higher-than-vanilla resolutions to work well. Otherwise you can barely see the thing, let alone aim at it, let alone fight it. If I'm not mistaken, its sprites are also taller than the vanilla game's image format properly supports (and given the large amount of transparent space, the kludgy column-splitting workaround may not apply here).

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The Icon Of Sin is considered a puzzle boss. Part of the fight is figuring out how to actually fight the damn thing.

In various mods, part of the fun of killing the IoS is finding out it's weakspot while defending yourself against monsters. And sometimes it spawns wayyy more than one cube in mods.

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Pure Hellspawn said:

The Icon Of Sin is considered a puzzle boss. Part of the fight is figuring out how to actually fight the damn thing.

In various mods, part of the fun of killing the IoS is finding out it's weakspot while defending yourself against monsters. And sometimes it spawns wayyy more than one cube in mods.


This. This is why anybody complaining about Icon of Sin are wrong. Because it's better than Just Another Gigantic Sprite Bulletsponge(tm) and you are all objectively, mathematically, measurably, empirically WRONG.

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An idea: instead of constantly asking questions, try seeking out the answers for yourself. Quite a few people have asked your questions before you have.

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The Doommer said:

I know that the Brutal Doom creator made a moving and not texture-based Icon of Sin , but why id didn't make a better one ?
it's too bad for a famous character to be recreated by a non id-relative programmer.


FYI Sergeant Mark IV's Icon of Sin doesn't move either. It's still a fun level to play. In other words, a boss doesn't necessarily have to move to be a good boss. Have you ever played Portal? Glados doesn't move either, and it's a fun fight.

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Jayextee said:

This. This is why anybody complaining about Icon of Sin are wrong. Because it's better than Just Another Gigantic Sprite Bulletsponge(tm) and you are all objectively, mathematically, measurably, empirically WRONG.

IOS is the epitome of frustration. Different doesn't equal better by any means, just look at D64's Mother Demon. It's another fightmonster but it's unique and complex enough to stand out and function and does things other than just shoot and refuse to die.

IOS is an off button that spawns monsters. It's not impossible to take the concept of "evil wall" and make it fun and engaging, but I can tell you most of the time MAP30 is not something that people look forward to.

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The IoS seemed to be a cool and awesome concept on paper.
Id just wasn't able to implement it properly for some reason.

I always thought that the boss itself sucked but the basic concept was far better than the concept for most other bosses Id threw at us.

I personally look forward to MAP30 of any wad just to see how the mapper implemented the concept (if they even tried it).

P.S: So far, I haven't really found anything like how I expected but I haven't been disappointed either.

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