wtf

what the f**k is going on with doom2? i go away from the community for only a couple of months and ... what the f**k...
doom2 is turning into quake2, i mean.. i can live with zdoom but ..what the f**k

oh yeah, go to my project, http://games.am/imback

the only response i think we all could say is : huh? wtf is you be talking about¿

...yes, the Stroggo's invasion of doom... that's it...... *snikers*

Do you mean the source ports adding 3D-effects to the engine? After "Rooms over Rooms" Doom2 still looks like Doom2, I think. I also dislike the upcoming Doom3 in advance, since I strongly dislike all polygon-based games (maybe with exception of Quake1). Doom/Doom2 is the best shooter and it does not need OpenGL under all circumstances. Or do you mean the newcomer here who are trying to compare Doom with HalfLife and other poor games (sorry, you all :-) and asking questions about that games? I believe that for longer, only Doom-fans staying here, all other turning around soon.
Doom....aaaaah.... :-)

What wrong with how it is now?

It's more interesting and exciting than ever IMO. Especially for us designers. We have an engine we have been intimate with for over 7 years, and get almost endless new features available to us.

I left Quake 2 and Unreal editing a while back because of what EDGE (then DOS DOOM) offered.

...this coming from fanatic, who is actually working and developing edge.

Now that is BIG pride at work.

I personally shun the quake series and the unreal series because I feel them too hard to edit.

tru, doom2 is easier to edit than quake 2 but the whole concept of "morphing" doom2 into quake2.... how many more ports will there be? i like doom, not quake-clones

You're exactly right. I liked Doom because it was simple and consistent. Now, keeping up with new ports is just like keeping up with the latest technology: impossible. I really can't stand all this 'new' stuff. We're at that time when it's pointless to bother making a map because it's technology will be outdated by the time it is released. Sad state of affairs really; once I finish the maps I began years ago, I am through with this crap (until Doom3 comes out).

Gôvernôr Barôn said:

tru, doom2 is easier to edit than quake 2 but the whole concept of "morphing" doom2 into quake2.... how many more ports will there be? i like doom, not quake-clones

So don't play them. Play DOOM. :)

Not much point in complaining to those that like the way things are going.

Lüt said:

You're exactly right. I liked Doom because it was simple and consistent. Now, keeping up with new ports is just like keeping up with the latest technology: impossible. I really can't stand all this 'new' stuff. We're at that time when it's pointless to bother making a map because it's technology will be outdated by the time it is released. Sad state of affairs really; once I finish the maps I began years ago, I am through with this crap (until Doom3 comes out).

thank you! SOMEONE IN THE DOOM WORLD IS ON MY SIDE FINALLY (well in this situation anyhow).. look at Doomworld's Picture of the Day or moment or whatever, do you actually think they are gonna post anything lesser of that?!

Uhmmm....

Doom2 isnt turning into Quake2... Doom2 is what it always has been, doom2!

I dont see anything evil, or bad in trying to add new possabilities to the old engine!

If noone had ever made a port, im sure this community would be a hella lot smaller if you ask me!

Gôvernôr Barôn said:

thank you! SOMEONE IN THE DOOM WORLD IS ON MY SIDE FINALLY (well in this situation anyhow).. look at Doomworld's Picture of the Day or moment or whatever, do you actually think they are gonna post anything lesser of that?!

Well, I will continue to make "Doomy" Doom levels. I don't care if others think I'm some sort of prehistoric phool. I'll occasionally use source port features if I think they are necessary and add something important to the level. Otherwise forget it. None of my favorite levels use slopes, 3d floors, or fancy scripting so I see no reason to try to do that myself.

Gôvernôr Barôn said:

thank you! SOMEONE IN THE DOOM WORLD IS ON MY SIDE FINALLY (well in this situation anyhow).. look at Doomworld's Picture of the Day or moment or whatever, do you actually think they are gonna post anything lesser of that?!

What do you mean lesser?

I enjoyed 10 sectors so much because being boom compatible only, means it was very similar to the old-school editing.

Lüt said:

You're exactly right. I liked Doom because it was simple and consistent. Now, keeping up with new ports is just like keeping up with the latest technology: impossible. I really can't stand all this 'new' stuff. We're at that time when it's pointless to bother making a map because it's technology will be outdated by the time it is released. Sad state of affairs really; once I finish the maps I began years ago, I am through with this crap (until Doom3 comes out).

Lut, that doesn't make any sense.

you say it's impossible to keep up with the latest technology, so you're sticking with old technology, I'm assuming you are comparing EDGE, ZDOOM, Legacy and the like with DOOM 1.666 - DOOM 1.9.

If making a level using 'new' stuff will be 'outdated by the time it is released', then why are you making levels for any engine, DOOM, Quake, or any other project you may have touched upon?

DOOM 1.x is outdated by that line of thought.

And if you can't complete levels for the original DOOM engine that you 'began years ago', it's no wonder you have a problem with the newer features that source ports provide.

I'm not trying to be a bitch, but I honestly don't understand why you guys are so hell bent against the new source ports.

You don't HAVE to use source ports, 3D floors, DDF, slopes, or polyobjects!

You can still make levels that use DOOM 1.666 or BOOM, we aren't stopping you.

Let those that want to drive cars and planes do so! You can still walk if you want, but don't try to take our cars and planes away!

I'm not just saying this because I'm involved in one of the best (IMO) ports available. Even if I weren't designing or supporting, just playing levels, I would still have this same stance. Old and new, they can co-exist.

I'm done. Enjoy. :)

Mark - I'm gonna try an analogy. People refer to ports like ZDoom and EDGE as "Doom on steroids", so I'm gonna use just that. You're a skinny little guy who starts taking steroids for "just a little while, just a kick-start". So you start getting stronger. Hey why not keep going? Your joints are getting sore but you're getting noticably bigger, and that's the important part. Then your nuts shrink. At first that's a bad thing, but then again how many people are gonna see you naked? Hardly any. Keep taking them. Roid rage sets in now. It's fine, just stay away from people a little more. Your nose and mouth begin bleeding. Finally you might realize "crap, I've gone too far". There's things lost, even after "recuperation", that you can't recover.

This brings it down to the gameplay/engine features: there's a point you reach when you change the gameplay of Doom so much that you might as well just load a Doom texture pack into a game like Quake or Unreal. We have passed that point and taken it even 2, possibly 3 or 4 steps further. Boom fixes were pretty much fine; deep water I am not a fan of, but the majority of Boom "enhancements" were just that - minor enhancements like transparent textures, a few more-capable linedefs, save-game fixes, removal of visible linedef limits (bug fix as I see it), etc. Now we're playing Quake with Doom support. I mean, what's with ports not supporting maps that the original Doom supported? Don't you think that's a beast gone out of control?

One day I may give in to the ratrace and make an EDGE or ZDoom map, but certainly not until I'm bored out of my wits.

So you're saying that the guy pumped up on steroids should not be allowed to hang out with the skinny little guy?

That's my point.

Freak or not, the pumped up steroid guy is pretty interesting tome and a lot of people, but we still like the skinny little guy.

They can still play with each other and get along. You make it sound like we need to do away with the pumped up steroid guy.

And obviously I don't have the perception of source ports (EDGE/ZDOOM) as bloody nosed, no testicled freaks.

DOOM, EDGE, ZDOOM, Legacy, they all have bugs. The ones in DOOM have become acceptable over the years, and some of us look at the newer ports like they are complete crap, when in fact they are no more buggy than the original they base themselves off of.

It's funny that we look at original DOOM's bugs as features, but treat newer source ports features as bugs.

You know, maybe you're both right.

Some of these features are kind of making it less like Doom, but some are not really so far fetched.

I have no problem with freelook, or jumping, or hexen style anything... that's fine to me, since it's from a DooM based game, and in my mind, makes it okay. In fact, I don't have much problems with room-over-room, because I've seen it in other games, quite like doom, (Shadow Warrior anyone), and it wasn't so bad. Also, I enjoyed the game Blood, and that had some 3d model type things, for the items, weapons, etc, which I didn't think was a bad idea either.

To me, it's not so much the technology that makes them less Doom-like, it's some of the maps I've seen, and even they did not have these crazy new features. The problem is, DooM, believe it or not, although I love it, is a very undefined game. It doesn't really go into much detail at all, story wise, chatacter wise, level wise... So ofcoruse there's going to be different idea of what Doom is and is not.

The main reason why I use source ports is for TCP/IP, since that I now have a cable modem and no longer do i want to tie up the phone lines with modem play. Plus, you only get one-on-one with modem play, and I've never had anymore players than that, (EXCEPT when I hooked up 2 computers with a serial cable, and got a program called JSERVE, which lets you play with serial cables and modems to emulate network play for DooM).

Another reason for the source ports is the 640x480 resolution option, (and higher, but I don't really need to go any higher do I?). The Opengl to me, looks kinda bad, so I'll stick with software, but I don't want super pixlation.

That's enough ranting I guess, hope I've been helpful.

Lüt said:

I think that the issue is confused here. The fact is that people who are purist should stick to Doom. The "Doom on steroids" applies to ZDoom and Doom Legacy, they are Doom Engines with the Extra's, whereas EDGE is different as it is an Engine that just happens to use Doom Data. I personally think that EDGE is an advancement, keeping with the retro style of Doom-like engines, but giving people a lot to play with. I'm also of the personal opinion that mixing 3D Floors with Slopes would be making Quake, and thats been done - that would be going too far for me. But the work it to try without breaking the magic of the engine genre: I don't think EDGE is near that yet.

I dont have a problem with ports really, in fact, the more features they can put in them the more i will like them.

You may be saying "So, you like features eh?, why not just stick to Quake, Ut, and HL, they have features?". Well, kinda, but I don't give a damn about those games because of one thing... they are so damned hard to edit!

Right now edge is the easiest port i have come across to edit for the things I like to edit, things such as sprites, sounds, and gfx.

I am not a mapeditor, and dont see myself becoming one in the near future until mapediting gets easier to do. I dont want to fuck around with linedefs and sidedefs and shit, I want to build a level like children build buildings out of wood blocks. I want ot actually be able to put the damn thing together as I see fit and not worry about all the technical mumbojumbo that everyone so seemingly easily deals with. Personally I would probably have to take a class in mapediting (if it existed) to get any good at it because the tutorals dont do a damn thing in the way of explaining it.