Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
NiGHTMARE

God - Belief

Recommended Posts

I thought I'd start another thread, 'caus both things are likely to get a tonne of response (this one more than likely the most though).

First of all, about praying. Mr Jackson, just because your relative survived and you prayed for them doesn't mean that praying was the reason. Do you seriously think that every time a devout Christian prays for someone to survive, they will? Do you also think that everyone who is seriously ill who doesn't have anyone praying for their survival will die?

Have you never seen the literally hundreds of books, films and TV shows where once devout Christians have turned away from God (usually to drink) after a love one passed away despite the person praying for them? Of course the same thing often happens in real life.

I know for a fact that just because you pray for someone who is very ill it doesn't mean they will survive. Several years ago my Gradmna suddenly became very ill. Both she and my Grandad were very devout christians (reform protestants in fact) and of course he prayed to God that she survived. She didn't. God might be there, but I for one think that he isn't interested in getting involved in mortal affairs, just watching and observing.

If you think about the number of people who are currently critically ill or have been in the past, and the number of people praying for them, then (and forgetting about God for a moment) the chances of none of them making a "miraculous" recovery are zero. Of course, you will only have your own experience to fall back on when the recovery happens, and who better to give credit to than God. Think of Mr Spock and his infamous statistics here for a moment here instead :)


I generally don't mind the really devout christians such as yourself, but what really annoys me about a lot of them is that while the Bible may be both an excllent source of morals and values that both christians and non-christians should really try to follow, and is clearly about a real person, it's quite obvious that quite a lot of it doesn't come from the so called real sources, yet Christians take it all as if does.

I'd like the following explained:

1) Why does the Bible often describe geographical features in places that don't have them? I forget where it was, but there's one place where a flock of pigs dive into the sea or something, yet the country where it supposedly takes places is something like 50 miles from the coast! And no, the geographical boundries haven't changed all that much.

I also seem to recall hearing that there's a town that Jesus supposedly visited that wasn't actually founded end until the middle of the 2nd century AD...

2) The fact that Christians constantly go on about all the non-biblical evidence of christ, "conveniently" forgetting that pretty much all non-biblical writing from around the time of chist that confirms his existence was preserved by Christians. And some of that has even been proved to have been forged or altered several centuries after Christ's death.

There's actually only about four texts that were preserved by non-christians, either the Romans or the Jews that mention Jesus, and even one of these is in doubt as to it's authenticity, in that it may refer to a different Jesus who is known to have lived at the same time, and is thought to have been a scholar or sage of some kind (hmm, where have I heard the thing about Jesus being simply a teacher and not the son of God before? That was a rhetorical question BTW)

3) The way that many phrases and occassionally entire paragraphs clearly do not fit in with what came before and after it, both in terms of the context and in the style of writing. This has been proven by several people over recent centures, mainly various professors of language and/or literature.

4) The way that many of the things that are described appear to be simply historical and factual detail rather than something the person who's wrote it actually experienced first hand, almost as if they were written by someone studying something other people had experienced rather than they themselves.

5) The way that many of the things in the Old Testament, and some in the New, seem to be written to have specific cultures in mind. In this, I mean they go into intimate detail, with anecdotes and "sayings of Christ", about things that Christians disapprove of but others, in particular the Greeks, thought were okay.

There's also an infamous section of the Bible that was supposedly written by one group of early Christians, specifically designed to discredit the views of another group of christians who had slightly different beliefs.

6) Most importantly of all, the fact that around the fourth century AD that were something like 16 books in the New Testament, most of which were written by people living in, you guessed it, the fourth century, many of which claimed to have been written around the time of christ and were "lost" until that time.

The situation got so confusing that the christian leaders scrapped all but four of them. Whose to say the four that survived are the real thing?


Finally, another thing that slightly irritates me is the way in which different christians say different things. For example, when asked what decides whether you go to heaven and hell, some will say that a mass murder or serial rapist, who believes in god and repents ten minutes before the end of his life, will go to heaven, yet a Chineese or Indian person who lives a virtuous life, donating money to the poor and helping to ease the suffering of others, but has never even heard of god, will go to hell, because he worships "pagan gods".

Other Christians say that that the reverse is true, that the amount of good or evil you do in your life is the true reflection of how you will end up when your life ends, not whether you actually believe in something or not (personally I much prefer this version).

Suffering eternal torment just because you don't believe in something seems a totally unjust and utterly hypocritical idea to me. If God is as good or kind as the Bible and Christians in general would have us believe, he surely wouldn't be that unforgiving and prejudiced.

Christians shouldn't be attacking the so called "pagan" religions and trying to get everyone to convert to the one "true" religion (although of course, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, and the various prostant churches even argue with one another). Instead they should be trying to get us to be good and kind to our fellow man, to "treat others as you would have treat you").

The "believer in God or you will suffer" approach seems to me to be simply a way to get the church more follwers, and therefore more power, rather than to get individual people to lead good lives and hence empower themselves.

Share this post


Link to post

I do not think this will be a peacefull thread. I wonder why I have registered for a Doom Forum.
Believe is Believe. Your facts are vague to say the least. Pigs to sea? Man read the Bible at least, before claiming it to be false.
Anyway, based on the evidence I found Jesus lived and was the Son of God. End of story. And no I will not start making a long post. I am going to play DoomII.

Share this post


Link to post

Spoken like a true man who was fed lies from since his birth, and has long since forgotten how to think for himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest Lament

Nightmare, I'm agnostic and I'm not going to argue or anything, but I happened to have lived in Israel, so... Your point One: the sea mentioned in the bible is the modern Kinneret, the lake large enough for a flock of pigs to drown... Or for Titanic, too... So basically you based your argument on bad knowledge of geography. Which is generally a bad thing to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Arioch said:

Spoken like a true man who was fed lies from since his birth, and has long since forgotten how to think for himself.

I was taught evolution. I am only for four years a Christian. Sorry :p

Share this post


Link to post

Oh God, not another Jeebus post. Now, I'm a Christian, but I've personally gotten bored of this constant arguement about religion which is going no where and will never go anywhere. I mean, the chances of somebody finding absolute proof that God exists (or something along those lines, like absolute proof that He's not real, ect.) and the first place that anybody hears about it is in the Doomworld General Forum is slim to nothing.

Getting on with my point, religion is all a matter of opinion. I think that the main point is that you have good morals and values and you help others. Other than that, you could worship a sacred potato chip for all I care, but then there's the matter of the afterlife, and since nobody knows, I'm not willing to take any chances of screwing up, not to mention that after reading the bible, I think that Jesus was a pretty cool dude, no matter what you believe. Whenever there was a problem, he always had an intelligent solution which would invariably upset the religious leaders of the time.

Getting back to your arguements about the bible, and its inaccuracies, and forged documents, and whatnot, I think that all the problems of religion stem from two sources: Mistranslations and Man's greed. I'm pretty sure you're aware that the bible is written in Hebrew, and from there translated into Greek, and Old (or is it Middle) English and then from there it has been translated into modern English. With all these translations, of course there are going to be mistakes from time to time, and unless you're a super-genius, everybody will be confused about it from time to time. And even if you do get the translation correct, then you really have to understand the message the original writer was trying to convey, which is an entirely different matter all together. As far as greed goes, back in the early days of the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope had alot more power than he has now. Therefore, it was necessary to occasionally forge some artifact proving the existance of God or a miracle in order to keep the people believing. Individual churches would often fake objects associated with saints, in order to bring in larger congregations (and of course larger donations to the church). That said, this shouldn't interfere with the message religion is trying to convey, and should be expected. Nowadays, of course, religion has far less power, and so doesn't have the kinds of scams that it used to (that's not to say there aren't scams involving religion, though).

As for praying, IMO, praying is not to bring miraculous Divine Intervention, but rather to bring comfort to the person who is praying. Anybody who prays and expects God to come down from heaven and start granting wishes like some magical genie has really got some problems. People need to understand that death is a part of life, and there is nothing that can be done to stop it. I mean, if people weren't meant to die, why would God allow them to die in the first place? It may be a little cliche, but everything happens for a reason. I'm reminded of that great Beatles song, "All you need is Love." Well, that's about all I have to say on the subject of religion (I even wrote in paragraph form, which somebody complained last time I wrote a long post on religion). Hmmm, I'm sure that there is some stuff that I've forgotten to mention, but it really doesn't matter, I'll get to whatever I missed in the original post some other time (I really only skimmed through it, I didn't read the entire thing).

Share this post


Link to post
Arioch said:

"Found God" late in life eh? Even worse then.

Yes, there is nothing worse than a guy like me. Muhahahahrr
When is Doom3 coming out again? II is kinda old...

Share this post


Link to post
Phoenix said:

I do not think this will be a peacefull thread. I wonder why I have registered for a Doom Forum.
Believe is Believe. Your facts are vague to say the least. Pigs to sea? Man read the Bible at least, before claiming it to be false.
Anyway, based on the evidence I found Jesus lived and was the Son of God. End of story. And no I will not start making a long post. I am going to play DoomII.

Excuse me, I have read the bible. But you can't seriously expect me, a non-christian, to memorize every single thing that happens in it, can you?

Share this post


Link to post
Guest Nuno Correia

I once read somewhere that "if it's not God who is all-mighty and powerful, then it's men, because they invented Him."

I'd say I have to agree. People need something (in this case, a superior entity) to believe in, to give them hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Arioch said:

Spoken like a true man who was fed lies from since his birth, and has long since forgotten how to think for himself.

I'm just curious... were you crying when you posted that?

Share this post


Link to post

My personal belief? I stay inbetween. I really can't stand the preachy religious and non-religious people and try to avoid being anything like them, but have learned enough in (public) school and other places and from other people to believe a bigger creator exists. I don't remember everything since I heard it so long ago - a lot of it has to do with nature and little things like that, some of it I learned in math class from this teacher who'd always point out things like how simple mathematical formulas could be applied to things like ocean creatures and stuff *perfectly*. I've been back and forth on the Christianity issue and having been around it and looked at it for so long, I gotta say I believe most of what I know about it and the Bible holds true. The fact of the matter is that it's about as possible for us to prove God exists as the creatures in my Doom maps can prove I exist. There's a lot going for him and a lot against him, assuming that every scientist I've ever heard has told an unbiased truth. All things considered, I gotta say I believe in him. As for me living a Christian lifestyle... probably not.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest Stealthy Ivan

I belive in no god..... God is a fraud.

Share this post


Link to post
Arioch said:

"Found God" late in life eh? Even worse then.

Actually, God finds you.

Share this post


Link to post
Nodus said:

Hehe, I started all this

i agree on much of that. i personaly dont believe in a god, i think man made him and the power they say came from him is from us. anyway to me the bible is a story book, a collection of many legends from many cultures of that time period. many of the things hold a basic truth but were changed to make the story more exciting and longer. many of the stories in the bible are directly from or are based off stories of other cultures and religons. it was alos written by humans not by a god or gods. so u must think humans will lie, exagerate and do other things to make a story sound good. i do respect that it has given hope to many civilizations, no matter what the religon. but i do not respect that people will throw their lives away for it and kill others for a damn story. i also do not like that we trhow away scientific fact that is proven over a book written by humans thousands of years ago who had no scientific knowage, people who thought mist, cats, and devils caused bad luck and death.

Share this post


Link to post
NiGHTMARE said:

Excuse me, I have read the bible. But you can't seriously expect me, a non-christian, to memorize every single thing that happens in it, can you?

My point exactly. Hardly any one can memorize all of the scriptures. Yet it does not stop the believers and non-believers to talk about what they have not studied. (Never said memorizing)Most listen to second hand news and talk about it. If one does not believe, cool man, no harm done. One starts to badmouth the Bible, not cool. Preachers preaching rubbish out of the bible is not cool either, actually it is even worth.

Share this post


Link to post
sephiroth said:

The early people where very much into science. The Bible does not have anything written against the Scientist. The Bible has not made the cats evil. Superstition is part of primitive set of believes, which infiltrated the Churches, but not the Bible. Religious leaders fear the knowledge of scientist, not God. Name one scientific fact overruled by the Bible, and again not by ignorant preachers. - Excluding evolution that is, please. It’s a bit vague. One has to believe in lot of coincidences for live to exist, thus making the evolution a believe. It is still a theory, well in my not so humble opinion.
As for the Bible being a story book. So all the religion invented the same or similar stories. Could someone please explain how anyone could have ‘invented’ the flood, and why? What reason could one have to invent a story like that? We ‘believe’ to send man to the moon, into icy cold space, yet refuse the possibility for three people survive hot ovens etc.

Share this post


Link to post

Wow, that's a bigassed post there NiGHTMARE. Let me just say a few things. First of all, no two Christians interpret the Bible in exactly the same way. That's good. We all draw what we need to from it.

As a book of morality it still stands unchallenged as the rulebook to live by. Unless, of course, you like people breaking into your house and raping your kids and such. You may think that we don't need the bible to live moral lives but one look at Japanese culture and you'll find yourself proven wrong.

There's a superhero to look up to, Rapeman!

Another thing, I'm firmly opposed to ANYONE who feels the need to shove their religious beliefs down anyone's throat. Jew, Christian, Pagan, Hindu or Atheistic. Believe what you want to and let me believe what I want to. It's people like this that have started wars over who loves Jesus more. Yeah, there's a great reason to break out the muskets.

One last bit, the Bible doesn't specifically say that we suffer in hell for all eternity. It says we are 'destroyed'. Given the idea of walking around in flames that burn but do not consume I think complete destruction is a much more generous route.

Share this post


Link to post

He had a lot to say.
He had a lot of nothing to say.
We'll miss him.

So long.
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.
Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud.
We'll miss him.
Ranting and pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
We'll miss him.

No way to recall
What it was that you had said to me,
Like I care at all.

So loud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing
And so loud.

Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me.

Will you? Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don't you fuckin lie.

Don't you step out of line.
Don't you fuckin lie.

You've claimed all this time that you would die for me.
Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy?

You had a lot to say.
You had a lot of nothing to say.

Come down.
Get off your fuckin cross.
We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.

To ascend you must die.
You must be crucified
For your sins and your lies.
Goodbye...

Share this post


Link to post
Guest deathwarrior

gods suck.

religions suck.

'nuff said

Share this post


Link to post
Guest Templar

Follow the god that failed christian fools

Share this post


Link to post
Phoenix said:

My point exactly. Hardly any one can memorize all of the scriptures. Yet it does not stop the believers and non-believers to talk about what they have not studied. (Never said memorizing)Most listen to second hand news and talk about it. If one does not believe, cool man, no harm done. One starts to badmouth the Bible, not cool. Preachers preaching rubbish out of the bible is not cool either, actually it is even worth.

I'm not saying that Bible is bad, not at all. I'm simply saying that christians shouldn't take everything written in it as if it is 100% authentic. As well as the translation issues, it has been added to, changed and misintepreted by many people with their own agendas over the centuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Phoenix said:

Yes, there is nothing worse than a guy like me. Muhahahahrr
When is Doom3 coming out again? II is kinda old...

Choices always were a problem for you...
what you need is someone strong to guide you.

I love TOOL, but I believe in God.

The fact is, you can't trust the church. Three quarters of the material originally in the bible was edited out by the church.

And if you smarten up and look past the bible at the books the church doesn't want you to read to find out some pretty interesting stuff about Jesus. The most relevant being that When Jesus was appraoched by Peter to help organise the church Jesus refused. He said "Organised religeon will bring the downfall of the family." He also never wrote any gospels like the movie Stigmata would have you believe. Jesus didn't beleive in teaching that way. He didn't want to write a book to TELL you how to get to heaven, he took your hand, SHOWED you how to live a peaceful honorable life. Whether or not God exists is actually kind of irrelevant. Jesus was a great rolemodel, and the world would be a hell of lot better place if more people followed his philosophies.

And I'd like to finish by saying "Go buy the new TOOL box set. The live version of Pushit is unbelievable!"

Share this post


Link to post

::Three quarters of the material originally in the bible was edited out by the church.::
By who's calculation?
::Whether or not God exists is actually kind of irrelevant.::
No shit.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
×