Which is THE BEST level editor?

I need your help folks. Im dying out here.

I mean, I used Edmap for a bit. Edmap is the easiest editor to use though it always seems to screw up my level, and does something funny to my textures.

So i started to use Wadauthor. It started off good, it was easy, it was fun, then once when i saved my level all hell broke loose.
I mean the level worked, but sectors were 1000 bits high when they were supposed to be 8 bits high. Im never touching Wadauthor again.

And im NOT gonna use Deu. Its a complete pain in the ass. It takes 10 times longer to make a level and its just a bitch to use.

I wanted to use DoomEd but i have to be in DOS mode to run the damn thing.

Deepsea is the best, and it has the best error checking system, though its shareware version has a limit to the size of the level! Crap!

Deep doesn't even work.

Waded doesn't even load a big level, it just dies on ya.

So people, what is THE BEST editor to use? Is there a best editor at all?

Hiya.

The best editor. Simple: whichever one you are use to and does what you need. ;-)

Ok, seriously. I'd put my money on DeepSea, Wadauthor, and maybe DOOMCAD (for purly DOOM editing). Of them all, DeepSea has the most 'features'; it truly is an "all in one" package. My personal "best editor" has got to be Wadauthor. It has it's qurks, but what program doesn't? I can create a base level in Wadauthor in minutes. Copying from one level (even another game) to another is a simple matter of copy--paste. I also use DeepSea, and am really trying to make it my fave, but so far it just can't beat Wadauthor for me. I find DeepSea's lack of "auto-incrementing" hights/depths/light-level of sectors a royal pain, and having to switch between Thing/Linedef/Sector/Vertex mode manually really sucks.

The answer to your question is impossible to answer, when it boils down to it. Some people swear by DCK, others DETH, others EdMap.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

And some people still swear by DEU and WinDEU...

pming said:

Hiya.

The best editor. Simple: whichever one you are use to and does what you need. ;-)

Ok, seriously. I'd put my money on DeepSea, Wadauthor, and maybe DOOMCAD (for purly DOOM editing). Of them all, DeepSea has the most 'features'; it truly is an "all in one" package. My personal "best editor" has got to be Wadauthor. It has it's qurks, but what program doesn't? I can create a base level in Wadauthor in minutes. Copying from one level (even another game) to another is a simple matter of copy--paste. I also use DeepSea, and am really trying to make it my fave, but so far it just can't beat Wadauthor for me. I find DeepSea's lack of "auto-incrementing" hights/depths/light-level of sectors a royal pain, and having to switch between Thing/Linedef/Sector/Vertex mode manually really sucks.

The answer to your question is impossible to answer, when it boils down to it. Some people swear by DCK, others DETH, others EdMap.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Edmap all the way... woo hoo!

pming said:

Hiya.

The best editor. Simple: whichever one you are use to and does what you need. ;-)

Ok, seriously. I'd put my money on DeepSea, Wadauthor, and maybe DOOMCAD (for purly DOOM editing). Of them all, DeepSea has the most 'features'; it truly is an "all in one" package. My personal "best editor" has got to be Wadauthor. It has it's qurks, but what program doesn't? I can create a base level in Wadauthor in minutes. Copying from one level (even another game) to another is a simple matter of copy--paste. I also use DeepSea, and am really trying to make it my fave, but so far it just can't beat Wadauthor for me. I find DeepSea's lack of "auto-incrementing" hights/depths/light-level of sectors a royal pain, and having to switch between Thing/Linedef/Sector/Vertex mode manually really sucks.

The answer to your question is impossible to answer, when it boils down to it. Some people swear by DCK, others DETH, others EdMap.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

"I find DeepSea's lack of "auto-incrementing" hights/depths/light-level of sectors a royal pain,"

Select the sectors and press shift+pgdn/up or shift+home/end or shift+/cursorkeys. See the Help/Keyboard commands for this and more. Light levels can be automatically "graded" as can sector heights. Nobody ever asked for a light level "inc" command as for the sectors:) Will do if I don't forget.

One can also "move" objects without switching, but not edit the details. There's a reason. If one designs very tight levels, it becomes almost impossible (or extremely time consuming) to select the object type desired. By that time, (IMO) it's much faster to type the -1- keystroke required to "focus" on a mode. A lot depends on the level detail.

For example, our sample Kaboom level is very difficult to edit with WadAuthor. Besides the limitation in WadAuthor of limited zoom, when there are very close objects one can go crazy trying to "grab" the right one. Of course then you resort the WadAuthors keys:)

For kicks I did a quickie "auto" mode. I'll leave the rough draft in for the next release just to get feedback.

As for the "best"? It boils down to familiarity and how one has learned to cope with the operation of any editor. I do listen to bitches though! Some bitches are just harder to do than others<lol>

250% Zoom level in WA is more than sufficient to the task. I just tried it out on the Kaboom level. I had no trouble grabbing specific objects, linedefs, vertices, sectors etc. when in WA's modeless setting. Neat level BTW. I assume you are the Jack that made it :) You are correct though, that selecting a specific mode makes it way easier to select what you want in general. I almost never use WA's modeless setting. I prefer to set it directly on whatever I want to edit at the time.

There's a way to have WA *only* select sectors or linedefs or things?

WadEd is perfectly fine, you just gotta know how to use it.

Lüt said:

There's a way to have WA *only* select sectors or linedefs or things?

Oh yeah, and the 250% zoom may be OK for some stuff, but try making a decent-sized map and zooming OUT far enough to do anything with it :)

Damn time delay.

Time delay.

Time delay.

Time delay.

Time delay.

Time delay.

I'm gonna kill somebody.

I'm gonna kill a lot of people.

I am going to go on a 38-state killing spree.

Humanity does not deserve to exist.

Frickin' password.

Lüt said:

There's a way to have WA *only* select sectors or linedefs or things?

Press "L" for linedefs, "V" for vertices, "S" for sectors, "T" for things, "N" for none (modeless operation).

Stphrz said:

250% Zoom level in WA is more than sufficient to the task. I just tried it out on the Kaboom level. I had no trouble grabbing specific objects, linedefs, vertices, sectors etc. when in WA's modeless setting. Neat level BTW. I assume you are the Jack that made it :) You are correct though, that selecting a specific mode makes it way easier to select what you want in general. I almost never use WA's modeless setting. I prefer to set it directly on whatever I want to edit at the time.

250% Zoom level in WA is more than sufficient to the task.
----------------------------------------------------------

True, but zooming in closer up to 12x more makes it a LOT easier. It can make the difference between easy and tedious - where tedious is having to pay real close attention to the cursor. For reference, select the area around linedef 3640 in Kaboom with WadAuthor maxed out. Now use DeePsea. Max it to in stages to 32x (set max in F5/Zoom or use "zoom to window"). See the difference?

This has a lot to do with one's screen size. A 20" is a heck of lot easier to view than a 15". Some still have 14" - ouch. I'm running at 1024 x 768 on a 17" for my example.

Actually this discussion is interesting in pointing out some common threads. Whatever editor gets used to first is readily justified in one's mind:) It's hard work to learn something new! And what works for one person won't for another because of equipment or visual acuity differences.

It was fun making the Kaboom level. Got to use all my own toys<g>

I've been working with a person with an extremely large level and found out that WadAuthor refused to load it. Odd from my POV, since there should be no real limit for a Win32 pgm. My guess is that maybe the dimension of the map (20k x 16k) caused a "fit to screen" problem? I really don't know, but it was surprising. It did have a large number of sector and linedefs, but that should not have been a problem.

The other issue that came up was the blockmap size problem. Looks like ZDOOM did not copy BOOM blockmap code (as of 1.22 anyway) and a blockmap > 64kb won't work. I would like to see a Doom port that supports 4 byte blockmap offsets so that problem just plain goes away. It's very easy to do and DeePBSP can be changed in a heartbeat. Already changed the error messages so BOOM type port users will be more comfortable with 128kb blockmaps. Will get it out in a few.

Later

Actually I believe there is a sidedef limit for Doom levels at the engine level. According to Lüt, the maximum number of sidedefs the Doom engine (this includes all the ports too) can deal with is something like 32,768 (32k).

The blockmap problem with ZDOOM shows up with a "tiny" level in terms of Lindefs/Sidedefs/Sectors. I just made it dimensionally large so the blockmap would go past 64kb.

Yes, the sidedef 32k limit is a byproduct of node word (2 byte) structure references. By the same token, one can't have >32k sectors.

The user's level that started all this has 16k linedefs and 25k sidedefs. Because of this plus the dimensions it has a 131k blockmap. This works ok in BOOM, but ZDOOM is not happy:) Sort of starts then "disappears" from the taskbar. I have to task delete ZDOOM.