The Gameplay DAMNIT!!

I have been looking through some of the topics and they all seem to be about the damned engines!!

I think everyone has lost touch with the fact that the engine doesnt matter (very much) as long as the gameplay is there!!

Another thing is that there was a topic called unreal engine vs quake3 engine!

Like What the hell? the quake 3 engine is really cool but its naff if you want to do something really cool with it!
The unreal engine is cool because mapping is simple and very intuitive (q3radient Suxx ass) and coding is just as easy!! all you need to know is java script!!!!!

Unreals engine is far more user friendly than quake 3 engine.

Now onto the real matter-
We all know Doom3's engine is gonna kick ass but if the gameplay isn't up to scratch and the mapping isnt user friendly I will be very annoyed and might even be dettered from buying it all together (not that it matters to id with I buy the game or not)

but I think that is why UnrealTournament maps are much more higher quality than the quake3 ones. UT's maps are more varied and much more fun (as is gameplay). Q3 maps only have 3 themes whilst Unreals maps all look different!!

Variety RUULZZ D00Dz and id better realise this! the gameplay should be pretty varied (kinda like half-life and deusex)

ps somebody said that unreal makes shit games!!

DEUS-EX

thats all it needs to make it great!

Quake engine -

Sin,
Daikatana,
Hexen.

and Fakk2 isnt anything special. nor is that star trek one.

Yeah, but the Q3 engine is much better for making MODS that UT's, as I said before they're both good games and both do certain things better than the other.

So, please tell me...
What gameplay related issue can we argue today??

We have discussed almost everything that is even remotely linked to DooM. Im tired of new weapons, level ideas, monsters and such. I also believes that GAMEPLAY is THE KING. But let´s face it, the only New DooM related news that we see lately are engine specific ones.

Unreal is cool for mapping, UnrealED??
God, what a nightmare that program was...

Q3Radiant´s the king. Hard, yet complex. And complexity is what make editing programs powerful.
Unreal have more variety, but that has nothing to do with the engine. They did all that variety because the game was called "Unreal", and they wanted to show stuff.

I´ve never said that Unreal Engine make shitty games, i LOVE Deus Ex and Rune.

But i like much more iD engine games. Just a matter of gameplay, nothing related (at least not entirely) to the tech.


You have a problem with HeXen?
As my pic shows, im a real hexen fan...
Im not going to flame you, just want your opinion.

i dont have hexen for pc, only n64, i cant find the original anywhere besides online. ive never really bought anything over the web. it would be easier than just waitign until i find it. i should sell stuff online bacasue in art were going to sart doing clay adn potery. i wanna maek a doom statue. of what im no tsure yet. i made a kick ass gargoyle head last year. well bust realy.

Well, if you're so in tune to gameplay issues then how about we TALK about them again, instead of just stating that it's important.

Mods are important.
How important?
Fuck, I don't know, but they are.
Well, do you want an in-game mod browser that checks for updates automatically?
Sure, sounds good.
What about all the tools necessary for creating levels, models, and code coming with the game on the disc?
Yeah that'd help too. I hate those 70 meg SDKs.

Let's talk about gameplay, why don't we?

Since the game will be focused on the Single Player experience, what type of gameplay are you looking for?

More puzzle based story driven gameplay ala Half-Life?
More action based gunfire driven gameplay ala SoF?

Should the 'use' button make a return? (Yes!)

Should the gameplay revolve around NPC interaction, involve NPC interaction, or avoid NPC interaction?

Should hit detection provide a unique feel to the action? Will every bullet have entry and exit wounds, as well as fracture flesh off in chunks?

Should damage reduce your character's mobility? Twenty bullets into the leg, with 3 HP remaining, I can't picture him running at full speed with 200+ pounds of equipment.

Should there be an 'auto-taunt' option available to make your character a little more personable? Make him/her more like Duke Nukem or the voices in UT?

Should the game ship with an auto-model generator?
Sex - male or female, obviously... maybe android as well
Skin tone - very pale to very dark brown
Hair - ponytails, buzzcuts, dreadlocks and afros
Face - eye color, nose shape, some minor details
Body - clothing, gut vs washboard abs, breast size (for women)
Decals - load in your .gif file as a tattoo or shirt logo :)
...and if it does come with a model generator like this, will it affect gameplay? I would assume so, as a gut would lower your jump and females can run faster but take fewer hits... you know, standard video game rules (= Metroid not included).

If so, will the model generator be for multiplay only and leave Single Player about 2 to 4 choices of Marine to play?
Big white guy - strong as an ox and twice as dumb
Big black guy - strong as an ox and twice as dumb
Little Asian chick - not too strong but fast and smart
Little Spanish chick - medium strength, medium intelligence
Would that be fair enough? Would El Yohoho always play the Spanish chick? :)

As a subnote, if you put in your own CD during gameplay would Doom 3 read the cdplayer.ini file for album, artist, and song titles?

Would temperature affect gameplay? In Hell it's extremely hot and you will run out of stamina faster, find a cool place to rest and catch your breath.

Will weapons/items be slotted or weighted? Pistol is 1 slot, shotgun is 3 slots, rocket launcher is 7 slots. Pistol is 2 pounds, shotgun is 12 pounds, rocket launcher is 20 pounds. The purpose of these would be to limit carrying capacity realistically.

100 rockets my ass.

Anyway... sure, we can TALK about talking about gameplay, but we get more done when we just talk about gameplay.

So there.

Any answers to these questions? Flames?

I do agree, gameplay is it, but remember that without a good engine all the gameplay in the world wouldn't be usable (Imagine trying to play a game like Quake III on something like the Wolfenstein 3D engine, oh the horror).

NiGHTMARE said:

Yeah, but the Q3 engine is much better for making MODS that UT's, as I said before they're both good games and both do certain things better than the other.

I'm sure that's true, but how come there are so many good mods for UT, and so few for Q3A. I mean out now, not "in theory". I've seen alot of mod teams go on about how useful UT is to them, but none about Q3A, except those who need specialised graphics features.

I just wonder...

deadnail said:

Hey, Deadnail, that's a good way to start the debate (again, presumably), so I'll go through your list and give my newbie opinion on them (heh, I haven't been a newbie at a BBS for a *while*).

>>Mods are important.
>>How important?
>>Fuck, I don't know, but they are.

Pretty fucking important, I think. Certainly in the long term. I can hardly think of any FPS I'd be playing six months after it came out if it weren't for mods and/or add-ons.

>>Well, do you want an in-game mod browser that checks for updates automatically?
>>Sure, sounds good.

I'd disagree here. That *sounds* good, so long as you have a "fat pipe" (ahem!), though it would suck for us 56Kers (hopefully not for much longer).

The problem though is mod quality, stability, and appropriateness.

When you go to a web-site for a mod, it's pretty easy to determine these things. When you just see a name, a version number, and maybe a thumbnail, you're going to have much less of an idea.

So I'd propose this modification of that idea. You "subscribe" (ie. choose to log onto) specific "mod services", which review mods, and put the ones they like up for DL via the game, with a rating (quality) and short description. You should be able to read all the docs and so on in-game too. AutoDL would be problematic in a variety of ways.

>>What about all the tools necessary for creating levels, models, and code coming with the game on the disc?
Yeah that'd help too. I hate those 70 meg SDKs.

Yeah, they really need to dump them with the game, not as huge files after a tonne of updates...

>>Since the game will be focused on the Single Player experience, what type of gameplay are you looking for?

>>More puzzle based story driven gameplay ala Half-Life?
>>More action based gunfire driven gameplay ala SoF?

Um, somewhere in-between? SoF's respawning REALLY got up my nose, for example, I hated that.

I'd like to see LESS script-driven stuff than *either* of those. More like Doom or Unreal, with less unalterable, or near-unalterable events occuring.

I'd like to see less constraining levels, with multiple possible paths through them, and I'll *perhaps* the Halflife ability to sometimes go back to places you'd been. HL felt more like a real *story*, an fully-atmospheric "environment" than SoF, which, though excellent, felt very much like an "FPS", always a game, never something that could happen, or even be a movie.

I liked Doom's rating for how you did on a level. That would be a nice thing too see when you reached a new "chapter". I love stats, like hit percentages, kills, and ammo usage. That would be nice to see at that stage too.

>>Should the 'use' button make a return? (Yes!)

Of course! It has in alot of games. id need to be aware that we can handle the complexity of pushing a key to open a door!

>>Should the gameplay revolve around NPC interaction, involve NPC interaction, or avoid NPC interaction?

I like NPC interaction ALOT, but I don't know if there really will be ANY NPCs in Doom3. If there are, and this relies on what plot id chooses, then yes, cool, I'd like actual conversation options. If there's no-one then, so be it...

>>Should hit detection provide a unique feel to the action? Will every bullet have entry and exit wounds, as well as fracture flesh off in chunks?

I pray that it does! That would be great. SoF had this, but it was all a tad pantomine and OTT, even a bit twisted or sick, but nice bullet physics and injury engine would improve the GAMEPLAY tremendously, evolve more complex strategies, and so on. Bullets should deflect off some surfaces, penetrate others, even go through multiple targets.

>>Should damage reduce your character's mobility? Twenty bullets into the leg, with 3 HP remaining, I can't picture him running at full speed with 200+ pounds of equipment.

This is more difficult. I'd prefer it if this did NOT happen, as, whilst highly realistic, it makes for bad gameplay in the long term (the only game I played that handled it well was Action Halflife, and that was very much DM-based).

I'd say the PC had to be some kind of "special" person, either in powered armour (as in Halflife or Terminator: Rampage), or genetically-modified, or the like. Perhaps a cyborg. You can explain almost anything away with cybertech, and have cool add-ons, ala Deus Ex (he was more a nano-borg, but...).

Slowed down when seriously injured, sure, but it has to be a reasonably rare condition.

>>Should there be an 'auto-taunt' option available to make your character a little more personable? Make him/her more like Duke Nukem or the voices in UT?

NOOOOOO! Stealth baby! You don't want your moronic PC shouting out "I'm a gonna kick yo bitch ass!" as you try and sneak close enough to that Hell Baron for a clean headshot!

Taunts, yes, you should be able to choose a voice, and add your own, and the enemies should get "pinged" by a "taunt" noise which angers *some* (not zombies, for example), and shows your location to them.

In SWAT 3, ironically, this helps, with you shouting for them to "come out with their hands" up, and enemies often coming out of hiding to shoot at you.

So no *auto-taunt*.

>>Should the game ship with an auto-model generator?
Sex - male or female, obviously... maybe android as well
Skin tone - very pale to very dark brown
Hair - ponytails, buzzcuts, dreadlocks and afros
Face - eye color, nose shape, some minor details
Body - clothing, gut vs washboard abs, breast size (for women)
Decals - load in your .gif file as a tattoo or shirt logo :)
...and if it does come with a model generator like this, will it affect gameplay? I would assume so, as a gut would lower your jump and females can run faster but take fewer hits... you know, standard video game rules (= Metroid not included).

VERY COOL idea. Androids are essential to that whole "2100 AD" feel, so they should definately be in, and making them asexual would be cool (an android would be another explanation for lack of bleeding, limping, etc. to some degree at least).

As for effects on play, I'd personally say that some "RPG elements" would be great for Doom3, but I'd prefer that they were more original than the simple big=slow but strong amd so on. I'm pretty big but I can run very fast and have a low tolerance for pain, so...

For single-player, it might be best to simply have a few pre-done characters as option, as you suggest, though I'd make them more original, like Small Black Male "Techie", fast and good endurance, but not a great shot, low load-carrying capacity and able to use even complicated weapons, but you DEFINATELY need several characters as Co-op mode is ESSENTIAL. IMHO.

>>As a subnote, if you put in your own CD during gameplay would Doom 3 read the cdplayer.ini file for album, artist, and song titles?

I don't know about that, but the ability to use your own CD is pretty essential. It's BS to make you keep the CD in the drive, especially when it's SOOOOOOOOOOO easy to find hacks (at www.gamecopyworld.com and www.megagames.com ) to let you not use it. I use them, with games I legally own, because it saves so much damned hassle, and I can just keep all CDs stored safely away.

MP3 play is always an option.

>>Would temperature affect gameplay? In Hell it's extremely hot and you will run out of stamina faster, find a cool place to rest and catch your breath.

Cool, but hard to integrate into the "feel" of the game. I like "limited running", but I may be in a minority. You'll need a temperature gauge, as well as visual clues (like your face-pic sweating and breathing heavily).

For a good "horror/effect", you need sections where you're constantly pressed, have to act fast and so on, and then periods of eerie calm, when you could re-gain energy, reload your weapons and so on. You should jump when you turn the corner and see an unexpected adversery.

>>Will weapons/items be slotted or weighted? Pistol is 1 slot, shotgun is 3 slots, rocket launcher is 7 slots. Pistol is 2 pounds, shotgun is 12 pounds, rocket launcher is 20 pounds. The purpose of these would be to limit carrying capacity realistically.

>>100 rockets my ass.

I'd go with weighted. It's more intuitive and causes less whining than slotted. Everyone should be able to carry unrealistic amounts (given their power armour, genetic engineering, cyborg-ness or android-ness), but some more than others.

If you do this though, you MUST have some *effecient* weapons, which, I'm afraid, includes "sniper"-type weapons. Not everyone is for that.

>>Anyway... sure, we can TALK about talking about gameplay, but we get more done when we just talk about gameplay.

That's for sure...

Jesus!
Yes, thats why Q3A in my option was kinda of a let down, They thought about Engine first and Gameplay second it should be the other way around. The gameplay IS the game.. the Engine is only their to polish it..

What you are talking about the variety of Q3A maps isn´t true. They have a much more developped style then any of the UT maps from an artistic point of view. Just compare the lame UT gothic map with a Q3 gothic map. UT´s gothic map is just some romanic/early gothic textures thrown together in a very naive way, while Q3A has it´s very own gothic style whit neogothic, baroque and art nouveau influences and it also grew up from the early days of Doom and Quake1. Unreal Tournament maps are nice, but they are almost either typical fantasy environments or typical scifi environments, also egyptian andour days style, but it´s just not very inventive!
Q3A maps are really developped into matters of multiplayer gameplay, you will get this when you play them for a while (not just taking a quick look). And in Q3Team Arena there will be some really large environment maps with new themes, as you can see in the preview vids of the demo version.

I notice you *ahem* conveniently "forgot" to mention the Quake engined Half-life, which to most people is the best FPS ever made. Also, Hexen 2 and Heretic 2 are both bloody good games (for their time anyway).

You also "conveniently" left out the Unreal engined Wheel of Time, which to most people is one of the shittiest FPS ever made.

Eurhetemec said:

I'd personally prefer to see MORE script based events, ones that you can actually change the outcome of, ala Voyager: Elite Force.

And seeing as JC said Doom 3 will focus more on story than previous ID games, I can only hope that this will be the case...