no zombiemen of shotgun guys in d3

Or for that matter any chain gunners. My point is, they aren't even real daemons and the fact that they are so piss-easy to kill makes them a joke. You might say tho that a room full of shotgun guys is dangerous, but then come on! a room full of any thing would be, wouldn't it? So I say scrap them, and spend some time on making proper daemons. The dead humans wouldn't have been zombified any way, they would just have been eaten.

And those flying skulls should be gotten rid of, they were useless and didn't really fit in with the whole doom atmosphere. This is why pain elementals must be binned also.

Lastly I think that at the end of every d3 map, there should be a boss of some kind, guarding the exit, getting tougher with each level- different strains of daemon, like white caco's that fly faster and fire multiple fireballs at once.

Spectres are good, and with the potential of doom3 they will be better. It would be seriously cool/scary to have a comletely invisible spectre, that can only be spotted because of-
1-sound
2-the fact that its hoove prints show up in the dirt/raise dust of the floor.

sounds like if you get your way, we'll be seeing a lot of new fresh faces to shoot. i like the idea of bosses at the end of each level, instead of some lonely imp standing by the exit. that would up the challenge a bit and make you want to conserve ammo.

"Or for that matter any chain gunners. My point is, they aren't even real daemons and the fact that they are so piss-easy to kill makes them a joke. "


SUUUUUUUUUUURE. We could also go all the way and only have Cyberdemons and SpiderMasterMinds. Many small targets are a greater threat than one big. Take a look at Serious Sam.

"And those flying skulls should be gotten rid of, they were useless and didn't really fit in with the whole doom atmosphere. This is why pain elementals must be binned also."

These flying skulls fit perfectly into the doom atmosphere.

"Lastly I think that at the end of every d3 map, there should be a boss of some kind, guarding the exit, getting tougher with each level- different strains of daemon, like white caco's that fly faster and fire multiple fireballs at once. "

HELL NO. This is not somekind of N64 arcade-game. Bosses suck. They are only good if they appear RARELY. A boss for every level would be sucky and crappy.

"Spectres are good, and with the potential of doom3 they will be better. It would be seriously cool/scary to have a comletely invisible spectre, that can only be spotted because of-
1-sound
2-the fact that its hoove prints show up in the dirt/raise dust of the floor. "

That's be cool, yes.

The advantage of the humans in Doom is that they fire hitscans, not projectiles. You can't strafe 'around' one of their shots... only distance can keep you safe from them.

BTW, a room full of chaingunners is MUCH more dangerous than a room with 4 Barons in it.

Lost Souls and Pain Elementals should stay and be vastly improved upon.

I like bosses, however, a boss at the end of every level would get stale very quickly... especially if they're just skins and ai changes.

The only ways to spot a new Spectre:
1) Sound
2) Hoof prints (damn good idea, bucko)
3) Shadows don't pass through it... a shadow casting across the rom should somewhat outline it. I think this would be really cool... especially if there were silent spectres. Boring room, walking along... suddenly the shadow in front of you forms a demon! =)

Shaviro said:

"Easy to kill" you keep saying.

Well try this. Set the shotgun guy to have the same health as an imp. Then make a level with two rooms. One with 5 shotgun guys, one with 5 imps. Then play with fast monsters.
Don't tell me the imps will do more damage.

*Ahem* Espitax, for your information that was a quote, and The-Window-maker said that :|

sorry wrong person ehhe
i'm right anyway :)

1. I suppose that the point of the zombies was to slowly emmerce you in the atmosphere instead of throwing straight demons at you. I'm not saying that is the way it was done, but I have a feeling that was the intent. Don't scrap them, just improve them. Zombies from SS2 are a great example of how zombies can be scary and tough.

2. Flying skulls... i don't know about you guys, but don't those look like demon skulls and not human skulls? Anyway, I don't think they really belong(ed) in the tech atmosphere, but they aren't totaly pointless. Besides, it wouldn't be Doom without them.

3. Boss at the end of every level? Reminds me of games I used to play for the old NES. They left that idea for a reason, let's not go back to surpassed methods. Bosses should be reasonably placed. They shouldn't just pop up all the time, or out of the blue (well, out of the blue if it's done right would work).

4. The spectre idea is great.

A note on flying skulls: if I'm not mistaken, there was a suspiciously similarly looking flying skull in id's older game, Dangerous Dave. So they're not native to Doom (and self-plagiarism is the worst crime) :)
Maybe they were first intended as an in-joke, like Keens in map32? And then id decided they were cool.

You forget many things.

Sure, zombies were piss-easy to kill, and the troopers were a joke, but the shotgun guys and the chaingunners were no laughing matter.

They simply traded defense for offense. Have you ever played Memento Mori 2? Chaingunners and Seargeants are made use of very liberally in that mod, and believe me, they are more dangerous than any boss or set of mini-bosses combined. Play level 6, 10, 28, or pretty much any level of that mod and you'll see.

It is harder to dodge a chaingunner's machinegun than it is to dodge than any fireball - including a revenant's (even on seeker mode).

The monster at end of every level would get boring really quick, besides, why would it wait at the end when it can wait at the door when you come in weak and helpless or catch you right after you've spent all your ammo on a horde of imps or demons. You would be able to prepare for it knowing it would be there, saving a few rockets or enough cells for a single bfg blast.

There should be some other indication that the invizzies are coming other than hoof-prints, maybe the hoof-prints glow or raise up flames every time they stamp down.

doomsick said:

sounds like if you get your way, we'll be seeing a lot of new fresh faces to shoot. i like the idea of bosses at the end of each level, instead of some lonely imp standing by the exit. that would up the challenge a bit and make you want to conserve ammo.

I liked the zombies.

The only change is I would have them be in the outfits of your marines.

Makes it a little more immersive when you're fighting possessed/undead former comrades.

Former Humans and Shotgun Guys should return to the fray, so to speak, because they are undead marines brought back to life by the Great Big Bad Immortal Force(or whatever...).
That's why in Dooms1&2 they are covered in filth and they are attacking you. Same with the Chaingunners-keep them too!
All three have a small part in the story. They were not eaten, they were killed and brought back to life as slaves for the GBBIF.
To take them out this late in the overall game plot would be sacreligious.
Any room full of anything in Doom is dangerous! Don't tell me that a room of Imps is not hard, because it is, especially when you're down to a pistol full of only 12 bullets!
And what's this about level bosses? I don't think so! It just wouldn't seem right-when you are right near the exit with only 12% health and a Chainsaw, AND YOU'RE ONLY TWO FREAKIN' STEPS AWAY FROM THE GOLDURN EXIT, bosses just won't seem fair will they? Oh, no! The stupid Boss will kill you, forcing to redo that terrible level over!! So, no Level Bosses!! Ahem....
The Spectre thing would be alright, I suppose, especially if the graphics and sound are as good as I hope they will be.

I think I have made myself abundantly clear........

There difintately should be zombies in Doom3...zombies make plenty of sense because they are cannon fodder for the true demons. They could be made better by sneaking up on you or rising after you think they are just a dead body. Besides, it says in Revelations that the dead would rise from their graves, so it's pretty apocolyptic.

Lost souls were cool, but annoying in large numbers...I hate pain elementals. The one thin that got me about lost souls was that they looked to demonic to be lost...maybe posessed souls would be better.

Bosses would get annoying after each level...maybe after every four or five levels.

Spectres would rock...or demons that were ethereal and appear in front of you/behind you to attack (like the guys on Diablo).

DooMBoy said:

I never did think that the zombies were actually undead - or they would have been far tougher to kill (revenant is undead). Just sort-of mind controlled I thought (otherwise they would have had 100+ health apiece and would prolly bite you or punch you at melee range).

I agree with you that anything in a room is dangerous. A rope laying on the ground could jump up and wrap itself around your neck or all the sudden the doors could slam shut and half a million imps or cacodemons could teleport in (saw lots of this shit in memento mori).

I dont think end of level bosses would be that tough unless they had the key to the end of the level, or they had some kind of attack you can't just readily dodge. Im a dodgy bastard and if it can't hit me when I am strafing around it, then I am going to completly bypass it. I think that most levels should ahve tough monsters in them, increasing in number as you go farther into the game, but you shouldn't have to fight them every time you play the level.

It's sort-of like e4m7 in doom1, the cyberdemon is in that one corner of the level but you don't neccicarily have to fight him to beat the level (actually, I didn't find out about that dirty secret for awhile).

Not to mention that if the big baddie doesn't move every time you play the level (ie, different spawnpoint), then you will know where the guy is and will be able to stockpile AND know how to avoid his attacks.

I think they outta have some kind of monster that can go thru walls.