Police Officers

In light of the murder of Officer Randolph Holder of the NYPD on October 20, 2015, I would like to thank Officer Holder for his services and may God lay His healing hands on his family during this rough time.

I was reading up on Quentin Tarantino's comments from the "Black Lives Matter" Rally he attended a few days ago calling police officers, particularly the NYPD, murderers.

I've been doing some reading on peoples' reactions to his comments and have come across mixed reviews.

Now, without this getting heated at all, I was just wondering how members of the DOOM community feel about this, as I have come to really consider many of you friends of mine, I value the opinions of all of you.

I voted the "neither" option because it's the safest, though I generally feel safe when policemen are around. It usually means the traffic needs to be cleared, that there's danger around that needs to be checked, and so on.

Those people who bash cops and kill them are doing nothing but making a bad situation worse. For years now a lot of people who would making great police officers are refusing to join the force because of all the crap that is going on. So we are now stuck with a bunch of power hungry nut jobs who are quick to abuse their power.

I definitely think there are some bad apples which tarnish the reps of the rest of the bunch. I have no qualms with police officers and appreciate that they keep municipalities safe. So, all in all, I think police are good, but it would be highly remiss to not acknowledge that some are very racist and cause more harm than good.

Maybe the "Good" cops should call out the "Bad" cops without having to be fired for doing so.

Gonna echo Hellbent, bad cops give the rest bad names. They are not inherently good or bad, each individual acts differently.

Back when I lived in the US, the cop guard at my primary school was hilarious, so I have first hand experience that cool ones do exist. He was an actual cop too, not just a security guard.

I chose neither good or bad. I was raised by a cop, and consequently I was around cops all the time. They were always at the house, our family was always at theirs, it was like a second family to me and a big reason why I'm going to school for it.

Unfortunately though, I have seen and known some people who had no business being cops.

Due to my experience, I think it is beyond ignorant to say cops are good or bad. I've seen examples of both.

I'm going to be a good one. I am up to this point unbuyable and uncorruptible.

2 months later and still no one knows who killed this cop: http://wgntv.com/2015/10/29/two-months-later-still-few-answers-in-fox-lake-lieutenants-death/

Himself or someone else. Not the 2 whites and 1 black he vaguely reported, but someone different. A cop asked to investigate police corruption by a private detective. The cop who had to take inventory of an evidence room the night before. Someone that participates in marathons who was the firearm instructor.

Not all cops or people in general are dirty. Some are great people and heroes unfitting of the death they receive.

Clonehunter said:

Maybe the "Good" cops should call out the "Bad" cops without having to be fired for doing so.

Unfortunately I don't know of any examples of a cop being fired for reporting a fellow officer for actions unbecoming of an officer.

Would you have an example handy?

dio said:

2 months later and still no one knows who killed this cop: http://wgntv.com/2015/10/29/two-months-later-still-few-answers-in-fox-lake-lieutenants-death/

Himself or someone else. Not the 2 whites and 1 black he vaguely reported, but someone different. A cop asked to investigate police corruption by a private detective. The cop who had to take inventory of an evidence room the night before. Someone that participates in marathons who was the firearm instructor.

Not all cops or people in general are dirty. Some are great people and heroes unfitting of the death they receive.

So who were those two whites and one black he vaguely reported? Surely they might be able to give some informa- wait. Oh right...they fled the scene because they killed a cop and nobody found them. Right.

Or you know what? I bet it was Occam and his pesky Razor again.

Though I agree with your closing statement, I don't think there was a conspiracy against him. Or did I completely misread that?

Well there is a train station nearby, but if they fled through the swamp like the cop reported.... they'd get stuck if not have wet clothes and when boarding a train someone would say wtf 3 of you with wet clothes? Then on the train they can go to Chicago, hop on an Amtrak and be anywhere in the country within an hour. IF they exist. IF they took a train.

He could have suicided for whatever reason Shot himself in the side above the shoulder, then in the chest and threw his gun. Then threw the gun away to make it look like it wasn't a suicide. Better to die a hero. Then the conspiracy is that he didn't kill himself.

2 whites and a black could have got the drop on him. BUT then why would he be vague... 2 whites, 1 black rather than baseball cap, jeans, blonde, red shirt? Again, someone would have to get the drop on a 30 year veteran ex army sniper. You'd think there would be finger prints, because he was shot with his own gun twice. Unless one of the junkies that hangs out in an abandon cement factory thought to wipe off the gun and wipe footprints both inside and outside of the factory.

The town was locked down for two weeks.

Or someone made him suicide.

As for the corruption, the police chief had taken an administrative leave of absence a month before that and upon coming back he just retired. It stems from a different incidence involving someone in lock up. http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150826/news/150829062/

The vague description is normal. Upon arrival to a scene, an officer will say over his radio, "Minor (if a minor) Male/female white/black/Hispanic/Asian". Further description is given in later reports or if the suspect or suspects are on the run.

Him retiring amid the investigation after a leave of absence a month prior tells me that he pissed off somebody on the Police and Fire board, none of which are going to be police officers. Those are going to be trustees and other puppets that sit in the pocket of the mayor, who appoints the police chief.

So, that tells me that he pissed off either the chief or someone on the board, who then looked for any stupid reason to get rid of him (I.e. misuse of LEADs). They'd bring him up on charges, and then while they "investigate", he is put on administrative leave. Then when he comes back he is told "Retire so it looks like you did this willingly and save face, or don't retire and we'll fire you anyway because we aren't an official sect of the judicial system and therefore are not bound by its rules like needing evidence. Your choice."

Trust me. I've witnessed this before.

Also...it's the Chicago area. Nobody here talks to people they don't know because nobody out here gives a shot if three guys walk on a train wet. They don't want to be a part of whatever is going on that isn't involving them.

So, the corruption that you're referring to in your example isn't going to be in police officers. It's going to be in elected officials. Shocker.

TraceOfSpades said:

Unfortunately I don't know of any examples of a cop being fired for reporting a fellow officer for actions unbecoming of an officer.

Would you have an example handy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence

fraggle said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence

Based on what I have read here, it looks like the "Blue Shield" is an "unwritten rule".

In these examples, it also shows that officers caught fabricating their stories per this "blue shield" rule are arrested and charged.

I'm not saying there is no corruption. I'm saying that most cops are fine people, but to say that they are good or bad as a whole is ignorant.

TraceOfSpades said:

The vague description is normal. Upon arrival to a scene, an officer will say over his radio, "Minor (if a minor) Male/female white/black/Hispanic/Asian". Further description is given in later reports or if the suspect or suspects are on the run.

Him retiring amid the investigation after a leave of absence a month prior tells me that he pissed off somebody on the Police and Fire board, none of which are going to be police officers. Those are going to be trustees and other puppets that sit in the pocket of the mayor, who appoints the police chief.

So, that tells me that he pissed off either the chief or someone on the board, who then looked for any stupid reason to get rid of him (I.e. misuse of LEADs). They'd bring him up on charges, and then while they "investigate", he is put on administrative leave. Then when he comes back he is told "Retire so it looks like you did this willingly and save face, or don't retire and we'll fire you anyway because we aren't an official sect of the judicial system and therefore are not bound by its rules like needing evidence. Your choice."

Trust me. I've witnessed this before.

Also...it's the Chicago area. Nobody here talks to people they don't know because nobody out here gives a shot if three guys walk on a train wet. They don't want to be a part of whatever is going on that isn't involving them.

So, the corruption that you're referring to in your example isn't going to be in police officers. It's going to be in elected officials. Shocker.

Its an hour away from Chicago known to most for having the most bars per square mile in the world. Its the end of the line on the train from Chicago. There are blue ribbons everywhere in the town. He was beloved. Its a small quiet town that had only one murder and that was 15 years ago a break in went bad. So suddenly a cop dies.

So if three men in wet clothes board a train a few minutes after a cop is killed no one reports it. A train full of morning commuters in the peak of rush hour? Chances are they split up and took a boat again IF 2 whites and 1 black were behind it.

These commuters LIVE in the town, why would they be cool living in a place where a cop was killed 5 minutes away? Schools were closed, roads were blocked off. Anyway, there are no three suspects, they would have been found two months ago even if they split up.

I'm not sure you read the article. The description came 20 minutes after the arrival, even watching episodes of Cops they give descriptions more detailed than race. Perhaps he was just relaxed after 30 years of procedure and though eh fuck it.

The article also specifies, "That inadequate description raises questions for security analyst and former chief deputy U.S. Marshal, John O’Malley. According to O’Malley, “It is Police 101 that when you give descriptions of individuals, you’re going to give clothing descriptions, ‘I’m getting out to investigate two male whites, one male black, they’re wearing blue jeans, red t-shirt, ball cap.’ You’re going to give a physical description of those individuals, the best he can.”"

Now the FBI is helping to determine what happened. Its been two months and it might be 20 years. I'm not even saying this all as a point of corruption.

This man's life mattered.

I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but what is wrong with the police treating douches harshly, even when it's not just for self-defense? Why even care about these pricks?

Take this guy for example:

Most people's first reaction is that the guy who shot him is a nut and a horrible person, while the dude who got shot is a just a victim. But let's think about this scenario a little bit more. Who are the kind of people who go around messing with the police like this? Low-life douches, that's who. Do you think fools who behave like this are often very good or smart people? Nope.

My point is, that regardless of if this much force was was needed or not, I just don't get it why I am expected to feel sorry for that douche. He is clearly an asshole, so why should I even care that he got shot? If anything the world is probably a better place for it.

But let's think about this scenario a little bit more. Who are the kind of people who go around shooting dudes without remorse like this? Bad dudes, that's who. Do you think dudes who behave like this are often very good dudes? Nope.

hardcore_gamer, you find yourself in opposition to the "official", "govermnental" views often. That could get you branded as a "low life" easily. Who does the police serve? Whose orders do they follow? Imagine them coming for you because of your opinions - you certainly should be considered a troublemaker disrupting the status quo most of us sheeple conform with, even if you're perfectly within the laws. Would you be okay with them smashing you to bits just to keep the rest of us unbothered by things we perhaps might not like in our daily lives?

dew said:

hardcore_gamer, you find yourself in opposition to the "official", "govermnental" views often. That could get you branded as a "low life" easily. Who does the police serve? Whose orders do they follow? Imagine them coming for you because of your opinions - you certainly should be considered a troublemaker disrupting the status quo most of us sheeple conform with, even if you're perfectly within the laws. Would you be okay with them smashing you to bits just to keep the rest of us unbothered by things we perhaps might not like in our daily lives?

Are you seriously comparing him to somebody who goes up to a cop that's in riot gear (meaning he is in a riot zone) and fucks with him? The guy on the video was a dumbass who got what he deserved.

TraceOfSpades said:

Are you seriously comparing him to somebody who goes up to a cop that's in riot gear (meaning he is in a riot zone) and fucks with him? The guy on the video was a dumbass who got what he deserved.

As much as this viewpoint is a nice, easy way out of it, it's not self-defense if you use highly escalated force. That in and of itself is still assault or murder, depending exactly how escalated it is.

I mean, it's a poor idea to mess with anyone with a gun without considering you might die for it. Yet the person will still get punished by the law for killing someone for a very minor reason. It's rather absurd that the people who are supposed to uphold the law are completely above it, even when it doesn't keep them from doing their job at all.

TraceOfSpades said:

Unfortunately I don't know of any examples of a cop being fired for reporting a fellow officer for actions unbecoming of an officer.

By Jove, you're right! I just did a Google search on "whistleblower cop fired" and it returned zero results! Welp, that's my due diligence for the day.

Bucket said:

By Jove, you're right! I just did a Google search on "whistleblower cop fired" and it returned zero results! Welp, that's my due diligence for the day.

At first I thought you were being real, so I was about to post the link to the giant list. Ya got me bro, ya got me

TraceofSpades, the cool thing about the internet is that we have search engines which make it incredibly easy to come through a lot of information and, sometimes, come away with facts. Check it out!

Bucket said:

By Jove, you're right! I just did a Google search on "whistleblower cop fired" and it returned zero results! Welp, that's my due diligence for the day.

Sir, that is because of the fact that you are using Google. A true Gentleman uses this ; https://duckduckgo.com/?q=whistleblower+cop+fired&t=ffsb

TraceOfSpades said:

deserved.

You want cops running around deciding what people deserve? You're embracing a lynch-mob mentality. That guy deserved his day in court after being arrested for physically assaulting a police officer but, instead, the cop used excessive force and walked away. wtf?

As far as I'm concerned, all cops are bad cops until they turn in their badges to protest the Gestapo checkpoints, asset forfeitures, militarization, spying, unwarranted searches, lock-downs, etc...

As an Australian I don't experience or witness the same issues and stories like America. I had my license suspended for 12 months and the police were very professional with no attitude at the slightest. I couldn't hate them no matter how much I wanted to during the time.

However I do hate Australia's (or more-so Melbourne's) strict punishment on driving while various murderers and criminals receive a surprising high level of leniency, much more than they deserve.

TraceOfSpades said:

Are you seriously comparing him to somebody who goes up to a cop that's in riot gear (meaning he is in a riot zone) and fucks with him? The guy on the video was a dumbass who got what he deserved.

This girl was also dumb, but you can't just say she "got what she deserved". The people protecting us aren't allowed to step over the line and go full retard on perps that anger them. We allow them to walk around in that gear and expect obedience from us when they bark orders, because we trust them they won't abuse it. When they do, they need to get their fucking balls cut off, because they become a true danger to our rights and freedoms.

Demonizing cops as all bad, or glorifying them as all good, is dangerous thinking. Video media is capturing more corrupt cops than ever, and now everyone thinks every cop is a piece of shit. The "black lives matter" thing is just embarrassing. I'm part black, and I feel like the movement is saying, "Well, only part of you should be concerned with this." I'm really not into the tribalism that comes with racial pride. I have been told that the rash of cops killing black folks has been overstated, although it does happen. To me the whole white-cops-killing-black-people is part of an overarching problem that is much bigger, but people like to paint things very black-and-white, and if they're Americans, they love any opportunity to victimize black folks. Personally, I think both sides are fucked here, there's a lot of stupid opinions and ideas going around. It's a fucking mess.

As others have said, the framing of this question is far too simplistic.

America has a problem with its police force like no other first world nation I know of.

Part of the problem was that your nation was forged with the gun, and what I think I can see from the outside is a basic conflict in the relationship between state authority and privately owned firearms that has existed since the very earliest days and never really gone away. You also have a state/federal disconnect that causes even more issues.

When you add the problems of racial tensions, poverty and population changes it's unsurprising there will be consequences.

What you have is a situation where bad people can make the situation appear much worse. And good people are unlikely to be recognised.

In order to change that situation and to avoid simplistic questions like the OP of this thread, you have to change the factors of the situation. The only factor you could realistically change is to give up the guns.

But people won't, from what I can gather it's either because they won't trust the state, or each other. And when there is no trust, the basic principle of law and under is put under huge strain, and so you will find bad police and bad people proliferating.

Trust me, there is nothing realistic about Americans giving up their guns

Ralphis said:

Trust me, there is nothing realistic about Americans giving up their guns

Indeed, but it's the only major factor that really could be changed, if the will was there.

Of course that wouldn't get rid of all the problems. Issues with the police and society are everywhere, but people not dying every day is a kinda necessary first step...

Guns will never be taken away, nor should they. Something that virtually all people miss when talking about gun violence in America [which ties into this subject] is gang violence. Most of the deaths involved by guns in America are gang or drug related. South of the border you have cartels running some of the southern mexican states, who in turn run a lot of the gangs who are essentially *just like USIS*. The amount of crime due to the 'drug war' is massive, and is the cause of arguably most of the deaths in this country from gun crime and the reason police brutality is so high.

If you want to fix it, you have to destroy the 'war on drugs'. America bombs the heck out of the middle east over trivial matters, it would be nothing to take out a few cartels, but that won't happen for obvious reasons (prisons and big pharma make a profit). Gun laws only harm legal owners, criminals don't buy guns legally, hell, now a days they can simply make their own guns in a machine shop. It is trivial to build even an assault rifle.

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp

48% of all inmates in America are in for drug related offenses, most of those are marijuana related. This is how prisons profit. Big pharma profits from the purchase of narcotics used in legal drugs. I am also willing to bet most of those weapons offenses are people caught with weapons for drug related purposes. (I could even theorize that most of the sex offenses were offenses done under the influence of drugs, in particular, alchohol)

Drugs are bad, mkaay. This is all related to police brutality because the police routinely deal with this war on drugs that calls for harshness and brings about the paranoia and risk in being a police officer. In America we like to ignore this fact and just accuse everyone of being racist.