Anyone nervous about level design?

DooM_RO said:

I really like the map from the Alpha. Lots of verticality and lots of nooks and crannies. Really well designed.

Yeah, the map design combined with the double jump and mantling abilities really make DOOM feel like a shooter/platformer hybrid.

"Bruce Lee in a skate park with a shotgun" ;)

This brings me back to something I've already mentioned several times in other threads: Where's my goddamn automap? Am I being unreasonable here? I feel like it can be done in 3D, even with multiple tiers.

GoatLord said:

This brings me back to something I've already mentioned several times in other threads: Where's my goddamn automap? Am I being unreasonable here? I feel like it can be done in 3D, even with multiple tiers.

I always felt the Automap kinda ruined the point of exploration.

GoatLord said:

Am I being unreasonable here? I feel like it can be done in 3D, even with multiple tiers.

Yes I think you are. Mapping a 3D level so it makes sense and can be referred to quickly is ridiculously hard. While it is possible (WolF:TNO does a decent job but it's by no means perfect), it's a bunch of effort that I'd rather they put into more important features.

I kind of hope on the off chance it could be metroidvania or hexen style levels with more of an action focus. You know, open ended exploration on wtf happened and having mabye a central hub with objectives you'd have to find and research youd have to do and puzzles and logs and shit.

And then have a few linear levels in-between of pure balls to the wall action and big reveals of the big bad's ect.... i think it would be glorious!

But that's just me.

I like that idea too. I'm also wondering about level interaction. I actually thought the computers were implemented well in D3, even if it was gimmicky and was sometimes tedious. It added a lot of atmosphere and helped tell the story without using cutscenes. There's been no mention of that For Doom '16, but we did see some mild computer interaction and I imagine we'll see more of that in the full campaign.

Marty Stratton has basically been saying that DOOM will primarily be action-focused with occasional "pace breakers", such as the Hell Knight hologram section from the E3 demo. He also said something along the lines of "We asked ourselves 'Do people really want much story in this type of game?'" So I don't think there will be any type of objective-based hub world or a lot of PDAs to read.

And personally, I'm happy with that approach. We have enough open-world games that flood the player with objectives. I'm looking forward to playing a balls-to-the-wall, concise, hand-crafted action game....with a decent amount of exploration. :)

Exploration is as important, if not more so, than the combat. I've watched the E3 demo many times and I find myself yearning to know, "What's over there?" "What if he went that way?" And the best part is, many of those paths look like they're genuinely explorable, not just scenery.

GoatLord said:

Exploration is as important, if not more so, than the combat. I've watched the E3 demo many times and I find myself yearning to know, "What's over there?" "What if he went that way?" And the best part is, many of those paths look like they're genuinely explorable, not just scenery.

Exploration is definitely important, but I just wouldn't go as far as making Doom open world. That's all I'm saying.

Pretty much all of the big GOTY candidates this year involved open worlds and clearing a checklist of objectives. iD tried that with RAGE and Machine Games even tried shoehorning a little hub area with fetch quests into Wolfenstein. It seems like it's almost mandatory these days.

I've grown tired of it and it's one of the main reasons I'm really looking forward to the new Doom. It looks to be 100% focused on providing a great feeling core experience.

Open-world exploration and discovery is great if done right, but it's not the be all of gaming, it's just the current big thing. I don't think it would particularly fit into the Doom style, though.

Having said that I'm playing Just Cause 3 right now and it's a fucking blast. It's like they looked at every single thing and asked "how could this be more fun", and then did whatever they came up with.

I'm not worried about it at all, As for their premade singleplayer, I enjoyed all of ids other games, and then we'll have snapmap, Witch I think will be good. I don't understand all of the fretting for doom 4, some people's reaction's down right appall me. Id is listening, and they want this as bad as we do. Look how fast they changed the Cocodemon. I'm very excited for doom 4, been waiting for 9 damn years for this.

They seem to be going out of their way, almost getting on their hands and knees and begging us, "Please give us another chance, we want to do this right." It's a bit transparent, but the effort is so clearly there. I personally think this will be the best single player Doom experience ever, much as I love the classics.

I love how positive everyone is now! Even on other sites it seems like people are really beginning to see that this is going to be a pretty heavy hitter.

As for level design, I can only want one thing and it's the puzzles and mazes. Also some of the dark gothic areas as well. I do believe it's in there if I'm interpreting the GI article correctly so I'm not worried at all. That was literally the only thing I left to question and I think I finally got my answer :) So hype for the next Doom!

MrDeAD1313 said:

As for level design, I can only want one thing and it's the puzzles and mazes.

It definitely seems like the game will have its fair share of labyrinthian sections, filled with branching paths, colored doors, and deathtraps. But they won't make up the majority of the game like in classic Doom. Instead a good portion of the game will involve battle arenas. Granted, the arenas seem to have their own type of exploration (verticality, jump pads, teleporters, powerups, etc).

We'll just have to see how the ratio ends up between the two different types of areas. Hopefully it's well paced.

GoatLord said:

They seem to be going out of their way, almost getting on their hands and knees and begging us, "Please give us another chance, we want to do this right." It's a bit transparent, but the effort is so clearly there. I personally think this will be the best single player Doom experience ever, much as I love the classics.

Trying to please Doomers reminds me of this;

I stay up nights nervous about level design, anxious about the menu font, have nightmares about the shortcut icon and wake up with doubts over the sound they use when pinky dies.

In this article there's some interesting information regarding level design: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2016/01/08/doom-10-badass-moments-from-our-hands-on-session.aspx?PostPageIndex=3

Particularly encouraging is this quote:

"
Doom isn’t all about combat. When the demon legion isn’t trying to sever your head from torso, exploration takes center stage. The UAC environments are densely populated with high technology and containers in various states of disarray.
Each new area or bulkhead brings up exploration options. You’ll stumble upon locked doors requiring key cards (just like the old Dooms), and if you are thorough in your investigation, you'll find hidden areas tucked off to the side or occupying vertical spaces. I found a series of crates I could ascend, leading to a full armor pickup. Another series of vertical maneuvers gives way to the plasma rifle, which can also be obtained later in the game, but can be added now for eagle-eyed players. Marty Stratton, Doom’s game director and executive producer, says secrets like this are in great abundance and should give players plenty of reason to veer off the critical path to explore.
"

I got a good feeling about it, I just hope it's more open then Wolfenstein TNO and it's bad habit of blocking backtracking (if the problem is map size or other technical reason, just put a few loading screens between transition doors).

s13n1 said:

anxious about the menu font, have nightmares about the shortcut icon and wake up with doubts over the sound they use when pinky dies.

Oh c'mon! =P

Well holy shit I somehow missed this section. That's the answer I was looking for. This is going to be friggin amazing!

Eh, I'm not very nervous.

s13n1 said:

I stay up nights nervous about level design, anxious about the menu font, have nightmares about the shortcut icon and wake up with doubts over the sound they use when pinky dies.

Literally any death sound would be okay for me when it comes to the Pinky, as long as they have a big thud when he hits the deck.

I would like to remind everyone how the level design is gonna be, based on my early analyzis of the shown E3 singleplayer UAC level.


https://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-2016-general/73289-doom-4-automap-drawing/

It's multi tiered, so ain't just flat, and it also has horizontality to explore.
It's clearly alot more spacey/open than was in Doom 3. It's safe to say the level design is in good direction on Doom 4.

Yeah I can definitely understand the OP's thoughts.
Now I have to admit that because I have been playing so many story driven FPS games that I have become somewhat accustomed to linear level design, but in the last decade even those have become more simpler and freedom has been seriously reduced. (you can no longer jump on things your height or small because invisible barriers/pillars have been put in place to prevent you from the path that has been set out for you)

If the designers of Doom 2016 really want to go back to the 'basics' of Doom level design, they really should allow for more paths for the player.
Rather than designing structures such as buildings having only one corridor you can go through, with the rest of the building 'locked off' as there basically does not exist anything beyond those closed doors. (closed off because these areas are lucked until you unlock them is something else)

But I really don't know what the current design goals of the development team is.
I kind of fear that it is going to follow the path of so many modern other shooters of the last few years.

Edit: I hope it is going to be like that quakke, I liked Doom 3 but it really could have done with more bigger rooms. I hope there will be room for more paths/corridors that connect rooms with each other.

quakke said:

I would like to remind everyone how the level design is gonna be, based on my early analyzis of the shown E3 singleplayer UAC level.

http://postimg.org/image/qlc5czx8t/
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-2016-general/73289-doom-4-automap-drawing/

It's multi tiered, so ain't just flat, and it also has horizontality to explore.
It's clearly alot more spacey/open than was in Doom 3. It's safe to say the level design is in good direction on Doom 4.

Considering what else they've said, level design is definitely non-linear like the classics, except with more of a focus on arena areas. So in terms of level design it's definitely going to be exciting.

Art Director Hugo Martin said in a video interview (link below), that the Lead Level Designer is always playing the first DOOM while designing the levels for the new DOOM. Sounds good? What do you think?

Source: http://www.pcgames.de/Doom-2016-Spiel-56369/Videos/Video-Interview-1184428/

i want the map to be very complex to be honest like some of the megawad that i've played, some of the plutonia 2 level, for example, where very difficult to remember some times(the one with the many archville)

i want that the key to open a door is on another place or you must use your brain a little to find it, stuff like that

also plenty fo secrets of course, but secret that actually help the player greatly and are hard to find, exactly like in those megawad

in the end, i want doom 4 level design to be precisely like the megawad that we loved, HR1-2, MM1-2, plutonia, TNT2, alien vendetta etc...

if this will be the case i won't be disappointed, because i can still play those wad, with the maximum fun ever possible in any FPS, at least for me..they never bore me....

Amph said:

in the end, i want doom 4 level design to be precisely like the megawad that we loved, HR1-2, MM1-2, plutonia, TNT2, alien vendetta etc...

I don't understand this entitled, unrealistic, demanding attitude. "Make it way too close to stuff I've already played!" This is a new game, folks. Try to be more open minded.

GoatLord said:

I don't understand this entitled, unrealistic, demanding attitude. "Make it way too close to stuff I've already played!" This is a new game, folks. Try to be more open minded.

This.

GoatLord said:

I don't understand this entitled, unrealistic, demanding attitude. "Make it way too close to stuff I've already played!" This is a new game, folks. Try to be more open minded.

when you're too open minded some times, you poop a big shit, better to stick to what you know it work good

if it ain't broke don't fix it, you know

Doom 1 worked, therefore since all those megawads came later they're irrelevant.

/Amph logic

Jaxxoon R said:

Doom 1 worked, therefore since all those megawads came later they're irrelevant.

/Amph logic

+1 what he said.