Double barrel, or super shotgun is so damn cheap, boring, overused and overpowered.

All this reminds me of the countless TF2 threads of "X class/weapon is OP pls remove X from the game!"

The new forum feature that makes you see quotes originally written by yourself as highlighted really helps when reading posts like MaxRideWizardLord's last one. :)

HavoX said:

We're sorry you wasted most of the afternoon making that post.

nah, just two hours while downloading something I wanted to play. While it was downloading, I was thinking if I should reply to even more posts. :P

gaspe said:

All this reminds me of the countless TF2 threads of "X class/weapon is OP pls remove X from the game!"

But at least my points are objective and not merely based on "this thing killed me, thus it's op" arguments like most generic "phlog is op whaaah whaaah". :V

MaxRideWizardLord said:

Wall of text

antenna
window
window
window
balcony
window
window
window
balcony
window
window
window
retail shops
retail shops
parking
plaza
BUNNY

stupid image resolution restrictions...

Kids these days.

MaxRideWizardLord said:

Would like to know this mappack, there are hardly any megawads\mappacks where plasmagun gets much love unfortunatelly. :(

Golly, I wonder...

I can't believe this thread is still going. Your opinion is not fact. I think the game would suffer from the SSGs removal. I'm sorry the fact that it's a damn good gun gets your jimmies so rustled.

MaxRideWizardLord said:

*Stuff*

Doomkid said:

I can't believe this thread is still going. Your opinion is not fact. I think the game would suffer from the SSGs removal. I'm sorry the fact that it's a damn good gun gets your jimmies so rustled.

Was sort of my point with the cemented in Doom comment (in case it was too obtuse). I still don't know what he hopes to accomplish here. After 22 years of the Super suddenly people will stop using it? Or maybe the entire Deathmatch community will be united in accepting that it's an 'overpowered luck-based noobstick'? (funny how saying it's luck based would kind of imply that using it well consistently would be more of a challenge than the other weapons, but I digress).
Or perhaps when he's at the bottom of the scoreboard the other players will be all like 'Hey guys it's cool, MaxRideWizardLord is only spending so much time taking a dirt nap because the Super is overpowered and overused, that's all, it's been proven with not-made-up-at-all statistics and empirical evidence he's gathered on Doomworld, so while he's in this game, let's stick to the plasma gun so we can all have a good time.'

Doomkid said:

I can't believe this thread is still going. Your opinion is not fact. I think the game would suffer from the SSGs removal. I'm sorry the fact that it's a damn good gun gets your jimmies so rustled.

Where did you get the idea that I want the gun be "removed"?? :/ That is some made up non-sense.

And unlike you, I never said my opinions are facts, so far I am the only one who said in this topic that what I said were an opinion on this thread, and I neither the one who miused buzzwords such as "axioms" out of context... -.- Although I said that some of my evidence are based of an actual my experience.

Please stop with this self-projection and keep it to yourself misters. :P Not talking specifically about you now though.

Use3D said:

Was sort of my point with the cemented in Doom comment (in case it was too obtuse). I still don't know what he hopes to accomplish here. After 22 years of the Super suddenly people will stop using it? Or maybe the entire Deathmatch community will be united in accepting that it's an 'overpowered luck-based noobstick'? (funny how saying it's luck based would kind of imply that using it well consistently would be more of a challenge than the other weapons, but I digress).
Or perhaps when he's at the bottom of the scoreboard the other players will be all like 'Hey guys it's cool, MaxRideWizardLord is only spending so much time taking a dirt nap because the Super is overpowered and overused, that's all, it's been proven with not-made-up-at-all statistics and empirical evidence he's gathered on Doomworld, so while he's in this game, let's stick to the plasma gun so we can all have a good time.'

offtopic and ad hominem. All I was asking if anyone know any mod for SSG that would equalate it's power with SG, that's all. Please keep your eyes on main topic.

MaxRideWizardLord said:

offtopic and ad hominem. All I was asking if anyone know any mod for SSG that would equalate it's power with SG, that's all. Please keep your eyes on main topic.

Okay, I suppose I did imagine all the other parts trying to prove it's a shit weapon that has ruined deathmatch. I do that sometimes. My apologies dude!

MaxRideWizardLord said:

Where did you get the idea that I want the gun be "removed"?? :/ That is some made up non-sense.

Double barrel, or super shotgun is so damn cheap, boring, overused and overpowered.

I guess you could say I connected the dots, generally speaking if I say something totally sucks balls and ruins balance, it's naturally assumed I'd prefer the experience without it.

And unlike you, I never said my opinions are facts

MaxRideWizardLord said:

my points are objective

Heh, I never claimed any of my points are 'facts' or 'objective' or whatever aside from the reload time of the SSG, from which I was just quoting the Wiki: "The SSG is even slower to reload than the shotgun (approximately twice the time), meaning that any enemy not killed by the first shot will have plenty of time to retaliate."

How much damage it does per minute doesn't really seem to be a practical basis for combat analysis, as you don't stand still and aim at a spot for 60 seconds - That isn't how Doom's gameplay works. A measurement on a shot-to-shot basis is a far more accurate representation of it's effectiveness in the heat of the moment - Doubly so if we're talking about Deathmatch.

Also I don't know where you got the idea that SSG is the only weapon used in CTF, maybe if only newbies are playing or something. Rockets are literally always flying in both pub and priv.

I'll agree to disagree from here onward. I love Doom2 and the SSG, that's my final stance :)

The doom2 Iwad isn't even hard to measure how great weapons are nowadays. When most players would rate AV or HR as the standard difficulty, maybe even plutonia. Like I already said the sg is boring as hell to use on the doom2 monsters. Do you know what is worse than ssging an arch-vile and praying it flinches? using the sg over it. Chaingun outdamages shotgun if you tap it so I have no idea how the ssg competes with it over range, let alone the sg\ssg competing with the RL\Plasma at range.

Most weapons have uses and that depends entirely on the mapper\mapset. Looking at balance from two extremes (Easy Iwad vs spam slaughterfests) is not objective imo.

MaxRideWizardLord said:

Wall of text

Laaaadnaaa, your dumb kid is on the Internets again!

Pegg said:

most players would rate AV or HR as the standard difficulty

Who? I found most of those maps boring as hell and prefer difficulty closer to Double-Impact (which, being a Doom 1 wad, doesn't have the SSG), or the first half or so of Vanguard. Difficulty in those was more about making due with the resources you have, and smaller amounts of monsters in tricky situations, rather than wading through walls of high-health.

Doomkid said:

I think the game would suffer from the SSGs removal.

I agree, and I think that's the unfortunate thing about it. The monster lineup and maps have to be designed with the SSG in mind.

I think for a single-player campaign, having a weapon as powerful as the SSG with few downsides and such plentiful ammo sets a really bad standard that the other weapons and the monster lineup have to keep up with in order to keep the game fun. Unfortunately, this happened in Doom 2 with a gun that's so boring to use. I think it would be interesting to see a mapset with Double-Impact's style of difficulty with Doom 2's monsters, but specifically missing the SSG.

Regarding deathmatch, I haven't had much of a problem with it back when I used to play Zandronum. Every player has access to it the exact same way from the start, so there's no major balance issue. However, in just about every map I've seen, it's made the normal shotgun and chaingun completely worthless, and I think that's unfortunate.

Doomkid said:

I guess you could say I connected the dots, generally speaking if I say something totally sucks balls and ruins balance, it's naturally assumed I'd prefer the experience without it.

That is famous misconception and mindless jump to conclusion. Only because something is cheap, boring, overused, broken and overpowered doesn't necessarily mean it should be removed from the game, neither that the user that pointing out it's issues and flaws is suggesting it. Most people who express their opinions like that would like to adress it's issues and flaws that they discover in order to be adjusted\solved\fixed rather than remove the subject entirely.

Also, please focus on topic of this thread. I clearly stated that I was looking for some mod that would nerf SSG.

Doomkid said:

Heh, I never claimed any of my points are 'facts' or 'objective' or whatever aside from the reload time of the SSG, from which I was just quoting the Wiki: "The SSG is even slower to reload than the shotgun (approximately twice the time), meaning that any enemy not killed by the first shot will have plenty of time to retaliate."

Like I mentioned before already, I didn't specifically talking about you only, but a couple of other teh "cool kids" who completely misused the words despite the fact they are put incorrectly.

As for the Wikipedia, be sure to check the actual stats rather than stick to the "approximately" assumptions, as that thing often can be biased and misjudged. I've already provided you actual objective numbers from same wikipedia, and it's FAR from "twice the time" even at approximately perspective, and neither even 1.5 times longer. The visual reload animation consisting of relatively so many sprites and frames is sure create this confusion for everyone, not to mention that ssg shots before it's barrel even completelly closed.

Also, please don't misuse quotes in the context. When I said opinion, I meant stuff like boring, overused and obnoxious (although 'overused' is something that can be relative, thus be objective). When I said points are objective, it be same dps and reload time.

Doomkid said:

How much damage it does per minute doesn't really seem to be a practical basis for combat analysis, as you don't stand still and aim at a spot for 60 seconds - That isn't how Doom's gameplay works. A measurement on a shot-to-shot basis is a far more accurate representation of it's effectiveness in the heat of the moment - Doubly so if we're talking about Deathmatch.

It's not just about damage per minute (I believe I never said anything about damage per minute to be honest), but also damage of first burst damage, overall dps, bigger luck-based spread and damage per bullet.

As for "as you don't stand still and aim at a spot for 60 seconds - That isn't how Doom's gameplay works", the ssg works better in this scenario, as you could just do shot, run away to reload and thus dodge all shots, get close and do again instant high burst damage.

And as for "a measurement on a shot-to-shot basis is a far more accurate representation of it's effectiveness in the heat of the moment", the ssg is far more dominant in this case, especially on most dm maps.

Doomkid said:

Also I don't know where you got the idea that SSG is the only weapon used in CTF, maybe if only newbies are playing or something. Rockets are literally always flying in both pub and priv.

Maybe you haven't played CTF in a long while then. SSG is pretty much used almost all the time, and you will hardly find anyone use rocket launcher, and benefit a the same time at least. Most CTF maps contain rocket launcher at place it will took you so much time to get, so most people just ignore it and go to ssg rush, including me. And lately in the CTF maps I played, there seems rocket launcher being pretty rare weapon to be on a map.

Doomkid said:

I'll agree to disagree from here onward. I love Doom2 and the SSG, that's my final stance :)

I still provided you arguments of why SSG is overpowered and too much ammo around official doom games makes it be way too overused, at least relatively to other weapons and most map design in official doom games, and yes, those points are objective. The actual stats of weapon, ammo supply on maps and the fact that you mostly find people use it more than shotgun and chaingun (or rocket launcher\plasma gun) on most official doom coop maps, or specially in DM\CTF speaks for itself. But then again, on more deeper level of questioning, balance is always subjective regarldess.

Use3D said:

Okay, I suppose I did imagine all the other parts trying to prove it's a shit weapon that has ruined deathmatch. I do that sometimes. My apologies dude!

That's okay mate, but be sure to read whole thread next time before making such an rude arrogant statement and assumptions about what I'm "hopes to accomplish here". Srsly, the dm is not even main reason and issue why I did made this "rant" thread to begin with. :P

Pegg said:

The doom2 Iwad isn't even hard to measure how great weapons are nowadays. When most players would rate AV or HR as the standard difficulty, maybe even plutonia. Like I already said the sg is boring as hell to use on the doom2 monsters. Do you know what is worse than ssging an arch-vile and praying it flinches? using the sg over it. Chaingun outdamages shotgun if you tap it so I have no idea how the ssg competes with it over range, let alone the sg\ssg competing with the RL\Plasma at range.

Most weapons have uses and that depends entirely on the mapper\mapset. Looking at balance from two extremes (Easy Iwad vs spam slaughterfests) is not objective imo.

So far I remember HR (especially HR2) and plutonia are very ssg biased. Sure, at the end maps of HR2 you will find yourself using rocket launcher more often, but you'd still stick to ssg most of the time in previous maps.

Chaingun and plasmagun don't "fliches" Arch-Viles, although ssg is almost always guaranteed break Arch-Viles pain barrier, as long as you're close enough and weren't dumb enough to shot him from far away.

As for "let alone the sg\ssg competing with the RL\Plasma at range", you won't use the lattest much merely because of it's much rarier ammo supply and you won't save up for unpleasant ambush, or just horde of enemies.

As for maps, I do agree, but unfortunatelly most mapsets are very biased to use of ssg which limits you to run around with chaingun like rambo, neither have muhc fun with plasmagun. Some maps have crapload of huge monster hordes like some of the maps from chillax and force you to use rocket launcher most of the time, but that is really just an rare exception.

Ghastly_dragon said:

I think for a single-player campaign, having a weapon as powerful as the SSG with few downsides and such plentiful ammo sets a really bad standard that the other weapons and the monster lineup have to keep up with in order to keep the game fun. Unfortunately, this happened in Doom 2 with a gun that's so boring to use. I think it would be interesting to see a mapset with Double-Impact's style of difficulty with Doom 2's monsters, but specifically missing the SSG.

Pretty much this.

Ghastly_dragon said:

However, in just about every map I've seen, it's made the normal shotgun and chaingun completely worthless, and I think that's unfortunate.

And this.



Back on topic. Anyone know any good ssg rebalanced\nerf mods out of there?? I'm quite sure there been used a lot back in time, especially in skulltag 2006-2008 years. There been mods that rebalance a lot of weapons and add new ones that seems to be appreciated by most, but I'm talking about ssg specifically. I haven't seen mods on dm\ctf or even coop servers that rebalance old wepaons and add new weapons as addition to old ones (not talking about total overhaul gameplay mods tho), unfortunatelly. :V

MaxRideWizardLord said:

Anyone know any good ssg rebalanced\nerf mods out of there?? I'm quite sure there been used a lot back in time, especially in skulltag 2006-2008 years.

Having played Skulltag back in '06~'08, I've never seen any mods that rebalanced it, nor have I seen a mod like that since. Beyond that, since the map-set in Doom 2 was balanced with the current SSG, I'm not sure nerfing it while leaving everything else as-is is a good idea.

MaxRideWizardLord said:

Also, please focus on topic of this thread

well I got news for you, Skippy... that's not for you to decide!

SSG or hotdogs?

Doomkid said:

SSG or hotdogs?

Wieners

Hello folks.

This conversation is seriously dry. Quite frankly Max, you came from the same community (Zandronum) where people tried to "balance" the SSG by making balance mods and made the game shit.

Allow me to drop knowledge bombs on you.

SSG is Overused? Sure.. because people like to use it? duh? However its pretty balanced, and easy to counter. SSG'ers kind of have to get in close for the insta kill. It's a fucking shotgun FFS. So it means they can take damage easily with point blank range attacks by monsters (or melee) or in terms of multiplayer modes like DM, getting rekt by a rocket or by the plasma rifle or w/e.

It seems your jimmies got rustled for no reason, and when you start stupid threads like this, simply expect stupid responses.

As for asking people to stay on topic.. How curious... you must have misunderstood............



Think about it.

If your only argument to not use the other weapons is ammo is rarer than the ssg it is admitting the balance of the weapon is up to the mapper and nothing else. Maps with a lot of cells will NEVER be plasma maps unless there isn't a single BFG in the whole mapset. That weapon is the reason to not use plasma most of the time not the ssg. Heck that weapon is even more boring and unbalanced than the ssg can ever hope to be.

Jimmy said:

http://i.imgur.com/KdgYUY6.png

I'd like some proper confirmation to which of the things are actually human legs and which are actually sausages.

mifu said:

As for asking people to stay on topic.. How curious... you must have misunderstood............

http://i.imgur.com/04T1YIj.png

Think about it.

And they say a picture is worth a thousand words...

Well played.

Pegg said:

If your only argument to not use the other weapons is ammo is rarer than the ssg it is admitting the balance of the weapon is up to the mapper and nothing else. Maps with a lot of cells will NEVER be plasma maps unless there isn't a single BFG in the whole mapset. That weapon is the reason to not use plasma most of the time not the ssg. Heck that weapon is even more boring and unbalanced than the ssg can ever hope to be.

Depends how many and what enemies there are, and how many cells there are. Plasma Rifle tends to be more ammo efficient against single targets.

Why is this thread still open?

More importantly, why hasn't my question about weapons balance and quake 3 answered?

Ghastly_dragon said:

Having played Skulltag back in '06~'08, I've never seen any mods that rebalanced it, nor have I seen a mod like that since. Beyond that, since the map-set in Doom 2 was balanced with the current SSG, I'm not sure nerfing it while leaving everything else as-is is a good idea.

Well, the practise showed that even with nerfed ssg it still is a damn deadly weapon and doesn't lower it's popularity among people who prefer to use it constantly. It's not like most dm maps are not tiny with lots of close quarter combat places, so getting close before die of rocket is still possible.

mifu said:

Hello folks.

This conversation is seriously dry. Quite frankly Max, you came from the same community (Zandronum) where people tried to "balance" the SSG by making balance mods and made the game shit.

Man, those matches were the beast, mostly because more weapons finally become more versatile and viable, even with huge ssg nerf people tend to still stick to it and dominate with it, even with just 14 bullter spread. Not like it’s super hard to get close in a close area DM map while having 80 mph running speed anyway.

mifu said:

Allow me to drop famous fallacy bombs on you that already been discussed countless amount of times in this thread already which have been refuted regardless.

Fixed that for you.

mifu said:

Allow SSG is Overused? Sure.. because people like to use it? duh?

If the weapon being used more than other weapons only because of it’s ammo restrictions, it’s objectively overused.

mifu said:

However its pretty balanced, and easy to counter. SSG'ers kind of have to get in close for the insta kill.

I’ve never got much problem to topscoring with it. Not like it’s super hard to get close in a close area DM map while having 80 mph running speed anyway. Not to mention even if you rush in open area, you can still tank a lot of damage received from same chaingun that run backward while you trying to chase him, get your foe against a wall, and instakill him in a moment at medium-close range and seek for new prey. Or if you see that area is too big for you to tank damage so he will be pushed against wall, you can just spam at him at medium range, do half the damage, hide to reload and jump out again to deal damage again\kill him based of the luck of spread.

Still, didn’t even address its issue in most campaign\singleplayer games. We weren’t talking about DM only, you know.

mifu said:

It's a fucking shotgun FFS.

Shotguns in real life are famous for being pretty accurate actually. Here is some educational video for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srd-QZXBfZI No need to thank me (I know I know, but you called for it).

Hell, even double barrel hunting shotgun the size of ssg that is in game are originally meant to be pretty accurate too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e8e6WrBOkU Not to mention, if they weren’t and had as huge bullet spread as they have in doom 2, they all would have been banned from using completely.

mifu said:

So it means they can take damage easily with point blank range attacks by monsters (or melee) or in terms of multiplayer modes like DM, getting rekt by a rocket or by the plasma rifle or w/e.

Except you can easily dodge the monsters and instant burst damage implies that you will be in less danger once you’re reloading weapon, in which case you can just step back at safe distance and come back when you’re ready to land second shot. And except that plasmagun and rocket launcher are projectiles, not a hitscan, so at long range it won’t be too hard to dodge all of it and take cover, which means you won’t get hit and you can still trick the enemy to oneshot them with ssg or just ambush him from flank\behind while he’s too busy spaming projectiles. You can as well try to dodge inbetween fire of rockets and get close to oneshot a rocketspamming marine, but it’s more risky thank just flank him. And if you rush in to rocket and plasma spam from open area rather than flank and\or ambush the enemy, you most definitely do something wrong.

mifu said:

As for asking people to stay on topic.. How curious... you must have misunderstood............

http://i.imgur.com/04T1YIj.png

Think about it.

This testimony contradicts common sense.
You’re selfishly trying to derail the topic with random gibberish, there is nothing to think about. What are you doing now does not justify violation of Doomworld’s forum rules, thus the crime you’re attempting to make or justify. You can’t just go on and start off-topic out of nowhere and even nitpicking to the user you didn’t like just because you feel urge to do so, as again, it’s against the rules of DoomWorld’s forum. Otherwise, this place would be a living hell, and even more random anime folks would come and talk about their favorite anime character just because they love to spam it everywhere.

And you feel alright to off-topic just because you don’t like the content of this thread?? That only proves you’re selfish and biased. So the next time If see someone whines and butthurt about Pain Elemental and say how they dislike the concept of enemy, him being pretty weak and worthless, or getting pwn by him often, I will just out of no reason start to discuss about the ol’ good soviet cartoons (just to piss off the weebs) that absolutely irrelevant to the topic. I mean, it’s alright thing to make off-topics, right?? No one will care anyway, not even mods it seems. -.-

My thread is fully related about Doom, and posting a “Doom related rant” thread is pretty much the Doom General is all about; it’s all relevant and on-topic with doom theme. I neither need to support my point with stupid meaningless irrelevant pictures that are completelly misused and absolutelly unrelated to the topic or subject that were discussed.

mifu said:

It seems your jimmies got rustled for no reason, and when you start stupid posts like this, simply expect stupid responses.

Nice self-projection mate.

Pegg said:

If your only argument to not use the other weapons is ammo is rarer than the ssg it is admitting the balance of the weapon is up to the mapper and nothing else. Maps with a lot of cells will NEVER be plasma maps unless there isn't a single BFG in the whole mapset. That weapon is the reason to not use plasma most of the time not the ssg. Heck that weapon is even more boring and unbalanced than the ssg can ever hope to be.

Well, I was talking about original official doom maps and doom games mostly, not mods\mappacks\megawads... A lot of megawads have their own rebalanced weapons anyway. Maps in same plutonia is very pushy to stick to SSG most of the time. Plasma still have some priority than BFG9000 in some situations, for example if you're trying to hit an turrent cyberdemon miles away, plasma gun will be more ammo-saving weapon in this case. Most popular or even overrated megawads\mappacks, along with original official doom games have much limited cells to use, so you won't just be a trigger happy idiot with bfg and spamming it non-stop no matter how you wish to do that. I still consider ssg being far more boring, at least because plasmagun\bfg are not overused freaking hitscan. Hell, BFG9000 have such an rare and awesome mechanics, and yet it makes you feel so tough and original, it's hardly gets any boring to use, unless that pretty much the only weapon you using 10 hours straight against hordes and hordes of barons.

Every time you use the "ftfy" argument, a kitten gets liquidized by an SSG.

MaxRideWizardLord said:

*another long post*

I didn't read any of that.

In fact, I got as far as "Well, the practise showed that" before I started laughing my ass off and the tears stopped me from reading the rest. :P

Nothing here has really been that off topic, it's just that you're making a highly debatable point. No one here is being a total asshole or otherwise breaking the rules, to reply to that one bit of your post directed at mods. If anyone was being abusive or overtly offtopic their post would be helled.