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Potatoguy

An overanalyzed complaint on the new Chainsaw

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This has been bugging me about the new Chainsaw we've seen up to this point...

OBVIOUSLY, it's much different from the Doom1/2 days of hacking demons to bits, on where you hold down the fire button, and shred your foes apart. From what it seems is that this new Chainsaw automatically cuts to a gore cinematic, and leaves the demon half the dumbass he was.

NOW I LOVE THAT. Seeing the bastard cut in an L shape mess of a body is bloody awesome!

But from what I've seen from the recent videos and articles, it does this instantly, and requires ammo. Here's where my complaining comes in:

-Does the chainsaw run on fuel? If so, how will this function? The fact it may consume ammo if you even use it on cannon fodder really downplays it's usefulness. And what if you have no ammo, or just not enough ammo on the bigger enemies? Would it be straight-up useless? Will getting fuel for it be easy? Will it just not even kill a zombie because you ran out of fuel for it??? It's all so questionable about this new rendition of the Chainsaw and how it functions. Maybe it'll be a great weapon once we play the game, but the videos I've seen isn't helping.

-Does it REALLY kills something the moment you hit them with the Chainsaw? This can backfire horrendously in entertainment and shock value if this is true. Let's put it this way: You meet a BARON. That fucker can screw ya to bloody bits. Taking him down will take some time back in the Doom 1/2 games, even with a Rocket Launcher. Now with what we've seen of new Doom, nearly every kill done with the Chainsaw happens instantly, instead of continuously sawing them like before. So if you had enough cells(i guess) for the chainsaw, could you like literally just one-shot a Baron without even going through the hassle of fighting him? Like just end it there??? That would REALLY downplay some shocking moments in the game if this is true. Meet a Hellknight? Haha! Just chainsaw him right then and there!

Of course everything that I'm saying can be bullshit. Maybe the chainsaw works considerably different than everything I even thought of. No one has played it yet (besides Conan. Lucky...)! I just hope ID knows what they're doing for the Chainsaw. I'm still high hopes the game would be glorious! But its these type of question I ask myself that I still have some doubt in my mind that not all will be great as it can be.

What you guys think?

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If you looked up the Game Informer articles, yes, the Chainsaw runs on fuel. Smaller and weaker enemies take up one fuel cell, larger enemies take up multiple. So you can saw down a Hellknight or a Mancubus, but it'll cost you more cells. Don't have enough ammo, you outright can't even attempt to saw them down. Furthermore it counts as a super Glory Kill, with a likelihood of better rewards than just weakening and Glory Killing an enemy normally, so it's a good way to derive supplies in a pinch or to kill off one really tough enemy, at the cost of losing efficiency in large hordes because there's just no way to cut down that many enemies with what ammo you have.

This is why the game's likely going to encourage meeting large groups of enemies, rather than just one or two Hellknights or a solo Baron.

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In the Conan footage, he first stabs the Baron with the chainsaw and it takes off 3 ammo (out of 5 total) There is also 5 red bars under the ammo count and also had 3 bars taken off when he stabbed.
He then reloads the chainsaw, and both the ammo count and the red bars get filled back to 5.
He then does the kill animation on the baron, and you can see it goes down to 2 ammo just before it goes to the next scene of him chainsawing a Mancubus.
We don't see the beginning of the fight, so we don't know how much, if any, damage was done to the Baron beforehand, but it cost 6 ammo to defeat it in the footage.

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Another thing i was curious about the Chainsaw was if it has Invincibity frames when you are sawing demons apart. I honestly don't know how to react on that.

For one thing, you don't have to hassle on getting butchered while you're butchering others, and it would seem as a benefit when you got the consenquence of fuel to worry about.

On the other hand, I-frames isn't a Doom staple. The chainsaw in earlier Doom games still allowed you to get hit by other demons.

Whether if this new Chainsaw has I-frames, I can't decide if it'll be a good thing or not.

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Potatoguy said:

Another thing i was curious about the Chainsaw was if it has Invincibity frames when you are sawing demons apart. I honestly don't know how to react on that.

For one thing, you don't have to hassle on getting butchered while you're butchering others, and it would seem as a benefit when you got the consenquence of fuel to worry about.

On the other hand, I-frames isn't a Doom staple. The chainsaw in earlier Doom games still allowed you to get hit by other demons.

Whether if this new Chainsaw has I-frames, I can't decide if it'll be a good thing or not.


I really doubt enemies will be able to hurt you during the "cut-scene." 1)Being hurt by an enemy during the canned animation would just ruin whatever thrill it has for certain people who are in to that sort of thing. 2)They are designing this for a casual audience, and the casual audience expects to be invulnerable when they are doing "cool" stuff like that.

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Potatoguy said:

Another thing i was curious about the Chainsaw was if it has Invincibity frames when you are sawing demons apart. I honestly don't know how to react on that.

For one thing, you don't have to hassle on getting butchered while you're butchering others, and it would seem as a benefit when you got the consenquence of fuel to worry about.

On the other hand, I-frames isn't a Doom staple. The chainsaw in earlier Doom games still allowed you to get hit by other demons.

Whether if this new Chainsaw has I-frames, I can't decide if it'll be a good thing or not.

The new Chainsaw NEEDS I-frames since otherwise it'll be near-useless because the new Chainsaw doesn't let you back out while chainsawing demons.

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TheGamePhilosophe said:

I really doubt enemies will be able to hurt you during the "cut-scene." 1)Being hurt by an enemy during the canned animation would just ruin whatever thrill it has for certain people who are in to that sort of thing. 2)They are designing this for a casual audience, and the casual audience expects to be invulnerable when they are doing "cool" stuff like that.


Oh look who's making assumptions again!

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TheGamePhilosophe said:

I really doubt enemies will be able to hurt you during the "cut-scene." 1)Being hurt by an enemy during the canned animation would just ruin whatever thrill it has for certain people who are in to that sort of thing. 2)They are designing this for a casual audience, and the casual audience expects to be invulnerable when they are doing "cool" stuff like that.


lmao

marty himself (and hugo himself as well iirc) literally said in an interview not long ago that using the chainsaw on an enemy out in the open just like that, surrounded by the entirety of the state of detroit would just wound up in getting you killed from whatever is behind you

seriously stop forcing your 'casull console babbies' meme here

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Almonds said:

lmao

marty himself (and hugo himself as well iirc) literally said in an interview not long ago that using the chainsaw on an enemy out in the open just like that, surrounded by the entirety of the state of detroit would just wound up in getting you killed from whatever is behind you

seriously stop forcing your 'casull console babbies' meme here

I like detroit. But any way this makes me happy to hear because I-frames are way to easy to abuse, made Ninja Gaiden 2 a breeze when ever possable. God I miss Ninja Gaiden.

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MrGlide said:

I like detroit. But any way this makes me happy to hear because I-frames are way to easy to abuse, made Ninja Gaiden 2 a breeze when ever possable. God I miss Ninja Gaiden.


I'd take his claim with a grain of salt. A lot of the new Doom fanboys around here are fond of saying "it will be this way, Marty said so..." But when you investigate further, you find out that all that was said was some vague statement that could be interpreted in a number of ways. It's a real trend here.

For example, the debate over upgrades and character building. Just a week ago, the fanboys on this site were swearing up and down that there was absolutely no character building, and shouting down anybody that disagreed, because of some BS PR type statement from Marty that, again, was not at all clear. Then real concrete evidence showed up that made it very clear that indeed there is an upgrade system in which you invest points earned into weapon abilities, i.e., character building.

Now, the same fanboys have done a complete 180, talking about how awesome Doom's character building system is, and telling anyone that disagrees they need to get with the 21st century.

Prior to that, it was the speed issue. People worried the game looked slow. The fanboys said "it was just a stage demo," it will actually be really fast because "Marty said so." Then we get the alpha, and it isn't fast. Now the same fanboys will tell you that it's stupid to want the game to be fast.

Before that it was PC modding. You can guess how that "discussion" went.

Basically, what we've got is a block of fanboys that swallow whole every bit of PR that comes out about this game. And when it is revealed that they were wrong or misled, instead of getting upset at the people that burned them, they just change their position to fit whatever the new status quo is and insult anyone that doesn't toe the line.

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TheGamePhilosophe said:

For example, the debate over upgrades and character building. Just a week ago, the fanboys on this site were swearing up and down that there was absolutely no character building, and shouting down anybody that disagreed, because of some BS PR type statement from Marty that, again, was not at all clear. Then real concrete evidence showed up that made it very clear that indeed there is an upgrade system in which you invest points earned into weapon abilities, i.e., character building.

Now, the same fanboys have done a complete 180, talking about how awesome Doom's character building system is, and telling anyone that disagrees they need to get with the 21st century.

Prior to that, it was the speed issue. People worried the game looked slow. The fanboys said "it was just a stage demo," it will actually be really fast because "Marty said so." Then we get the alpha, and it isn't fast. Now the same fanboys will tell you that it's stupid to want the game to be fast.

Before that it was PC modding. You can guess how that "discussion" went.


1)New Doom doesn't have character building. That's not character building.

2)It IS fast. The movement is about Quake 3 speed without strafe jumping, and the combat is definitely fast.

3)We still don't know whether we will get modding tools or not, because they said that they are not thinking about that at this point, probably because they want to see how will the snapmap thing turn out first. I personally don't care about modding, but if there will be an opportunity for petition signing in the future, i will cry "give us modding tools" as well.

TheGamePhilosophe said:

Basically, what we've got is a block of fanboys that swallow whole every bit of PR that comes out about this game. And when it is revealed that they were wrong or misled, instead of getting upset at the people that burned them, they just change their position to fit whatever the new status quo is and insult anyone that doesn't toe the line.


Nobody was wrong, mislead or burned, i got exactly what i was expecting. The only people who get burned are the ones who expect the game to be exactly like they want it to be, nothing more and nothing less. Yes Marty told us there is no character building and I understand why he said that, it's too retarded to be called character building. And the only people who get insulted are those who post bunch of retarded irrational shit like this:

chubz said:

Waypoints confirmed (see top).

TheGamePhilosophe said:

This tells you A LOT about how linear the level design will be. Also, someone confirmed from the video that there will be on-screen waypoint markers to prevent you from ever getting lost.


I've seen a lot of whining/complaining/ranting and other retarded bullshit, but this guy is just special, it's like he wants this new Doom to be the worst game ever made, and to prove that the developers are the biggest liars in the world.

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you know, you really have a knack for being an unpalatable shitter to keep up these threads with your 'le superior and smarter than everyone else but don't show it off too much' mindset and projecting your distaste for a minimal portion out of a larger group of people for enjoying something you don't

you sure are showing everyone else here how smart you are, just look at me for instance, I just joined yesterday and I can already tell how much you enjoy circlejerking with your friends over at /v/

I'd take his claim with a grain of salt. A lot of the new Doom fanboys around here are fond of saying "it will be this way, Marty said so..." But when you investigate further, you find out that all that was said was some vague statement that could be interpreted in a number of ways. It's a real trend here.


it's not at all hard to show up and tell everyone that they're being told something completely different whenever they've been told something, wait for a week hoping you were right, all the while mixing pessimism and high levels of vitriol towards anyone dare they not compliment anything you say, and then show up back again saying 'ahhahaha u feggits told u so xD' in a backhanded passive-aggressive manner, qt

weapon abilities, i.e., character building


'changing the way extra features weapons have to make in order to have them do different things a different way' directly relates to 'choose how many points you want to place into how many inches long you want your nipples to grow', got it

the same fanboys


nah

have done a complete 180, talking about how awesome Doom's character building system is, and telling anyone that disagrees they need to get with the 21st century.


tell us in the doll where the weapon mods touched you

I don't even give two fat testicles as to how this 'perk system' you keep referring to you think works exactly, and frankly don't care whether they have the player get to a point where they make him choose between either being better at doing A thing or being better at doing Q thing, what I don't get is the unnecessary bashing the game receives from everywhere over the internet for even so much as introducing it when fucking TNO did it beforehand and it was more than fucking fine

go ahead, bring up the achievements list, the objectives list and the compass (when they very well dare have an automap in there as well THINK OF THE OLDSCHOOL CROWD) too while you're at it

Prior to that, it was the speed issue. People worried the game looked slow. The fanboys said "it was just a stage demo," it will actually be really fast because "Marty said so." Then we get the alpha, and it isn't fast. Now the same fanboys will tell you that it's stupid to want the game to be fast.


unrelated, but I bet you're one of those people who genuinely go 'Scythe 2 is how I remember Doom being' vs 'The Ultimate Doom is how I remember Doom being' as well

also it was generally agreed by general standards that the MP alpha wasn't remotely fast as it could have been, but here's a deal breaker for you: it doesn't even NEED to be as fast as vanilla Doom

the game is already as fast as a modern shooter in a contemporary market over-saturated with modern shooters would look up to be if it decided to not be a TACTICOOL cover-based piece of shit, but rather a good old frantic multiplayer LOL I KILL U simulator. It at worst is as slow as unreal fucking tournament 2004, and that's gladly not the case

notice how all the '2slow' complaints and whining all derive from an unpolished, unfinished multiplayer section of the game that they have yet to fully reveal, this just can't be fucking argued. especially when most people complaining about said section didn't even have a chance to fucking play it before forming an actual opinion of it

which leads me to this final tenet on the '2slow4me' subject, and I don't mean to trigger you or anyone not liking the game reading this any harder by saying this, but the actual game's combat is as fast -if not faster- than vanilla doom. and I say this playing vanilla doom nearly every single fucking day of my life and being a die-hard 'classic doom>>>>gameplay mods' autist that I am

the enemies are infinitely more expressive, move way faster, react faster, are more mobile, reach higher ground, and are generally more active and reactive in general. literally the only complaint coming from what I suspect would be the diehard PC epin gaymer/brutal doom crowd would be player speed being slow which is inherently fucking hypocritical of them seeing as most other FPS released in this day and age that they so much seem to glorify, including brutal doom as a standalone mod, actually feature slower player movement.

Before that it was PC modding. You can guess how that "discussion" went.


there's literally been no word regarding PC modability further down the line besides the german article posted weeks ago which briefly mentioned ID was considering the possibility of releasing proper mod tools later on, after much neglecting the sole possibility of there even being said mod tools to be released after the game was out in articles and interviews prior to that. so yeah, I guess you could 'take that with a tiny, weeny pinch of salt' too :^).

Basically, what we've got is a block of fanboys that swallow whole every bit of PR that comes out about this game. And when it is revealed that they were wrong or misled, instead of getting upset at the people that burned them, they just change their position to fit whatever the new status quo is and insult anyone that doesn't toe the line.


it must be hard for you to frequent a discussion forum that keeps on bringing up theories and discussing whether X features fit the overall tone of the new game (which they actually do rather surprisingly well) and simultaenously embracing them while agreeing that they do, in fact, fit in place with what they're going for, and moan about them being oh so wrong and just making yourself angrier in the process, must be a real fucking tea party with the girls every time you open up the browser and click on this board of all boards on reddit you could go and pay a visit to instead

you may reply to this post any which way you want, I already said and done everything I wanted to and directed all the thoughts I had regarding your fucking shitty attitude to you and settled them down here, free for anyone to come and read as they will.

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TheGamePhilosophe said:

I'd take his claim with a grain of salt. A lot of the new Doom fanboys around here are fond of saying "it will be this way, Marty said so..." But when you investigate further, you find out that all that was said was some vague statement that could be interpreted in a number of ways. It's a real trend here.

For example, the debate over upgrades and character building. Just a week ago, the fanboys on this site were swearing up and down that there was absolutely no character building, and shouting down anybody that disagreed, because of some BS PR type statement from Marty that, again, was not at all clear. Then real concrete evidence showed up that made it very clear that indeed there is an upgrade system in which you invest points earned into weapon abilities, i.e., character building.

Now, the same fanboys have done a complete 180, talking about how awesome Doom's character building system is, and telling anyone that disagrees they need to get with the 21st century.

Prior to that, it was the speed issue. People worried the game looked slow. The fanboys said "it was just a stage demo," it will actually be really fast because "Marty said so." Then we get the alpha, and it isn't fast. Now the same fanboys will tell you that it's stupid to want the game to be fast.

Before that it was PC modding. You can guess how that "discussion" went.

Basically, what we've got is a block of fanboys that swallow whole every bit of PR that comes out about this game. And when it is revealed that they were wrong or misled, instead of getting upset at the people that burned them, they just change their position to fit whatever the new status quo is and insult anyone that doesn't toe the line.


Your an absolute toss pot and I can't be bothered to explain why as many have already done so. We're lucky to get a new doom in this day and age and all I see are retards like you that keep on nit picking. You people are just spoiled closed minded idiots.
Sorry if this gets me banned but I'm just fed up with negativity that this game gets. All I see is a very polished game that has had a lot of care and thought put in to it.

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I'm thinking this will be my first time in hell, anywho I think we all just need to calm down, and see what happens when Doom 4 comes out, Id hasn't done us wrong yet have they? Sure some people didn't like doom 3 that much but they've learned from that. I think we all just need to breath and see what the real game is like and then stone Id if were not happy. They want this to be great just as much as all of us do.

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what we've got is a block of fanboys that swallow whole every bit of PR that comes out about this game. And when it is revealed that they were wrong or misled, instead of getting upset at the people that burned them, they just change their position to fit whatever the new status quo is and insult anyone that doesn't toe the line.


Character development and upgrading player stats are very much not the same thing. Character development is what you get from a story with some sort of depth to it. You can have a player that levels up without a narrative to go alongside it.

I personally can't think of any other Doomers I know who have "done a 180" on their Doom4 wishlist. There are a lot of different opinions flying around so all the blanket statements about some vaguely defined "block of doom fanboys" don't really tell anyone anything.

This game does seem like it's facing particular scrutiny compared to other upcoming titles, but I think trying to place blame for that phenomenon is a waste of time. People are entitled to their opinions and are entitled to change them. I mean honestly, are people not allowed to think about something a second time and realize they initially dismissed a cool idea? There's not really a lot to gain from that mindset.

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i just hope we can still just do regular damage with it and not just get instakills with it. I feel like even with a fuel cell cost insta kills without weakening the enemy is over powered.

Also maybe i just wanna rip and tear my way through a room with the chainsaw (like in all other previous dooms) and not have to sit through a 5 sec kill animation for EVERY FUCKING ENEMY. Otherwise im just going to avoid using the damn thing.

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Nineball said:

i just hope we can still just do regular damage with it and not just get instakills with it. I feel like even with a fuel cell cost insta kills without weakening the enemy is over powered.

Also maybe i just wanna rip and tear my way through a room with the chainsaw (like in all other previous dooms) and not have to sit through a 5 sec kill animation for EVERY FUCKING ENEMY. Otherwise im just going to avoid using the damn thing.


It's not 5sec kill animation because id even stated in an interview they want the glorykills to be relatively fast to not slowdown the pace of the game. But manual chainsawing would also be cool indeed.

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Far as I can tell from the trailer, the kills are ALOT faster. Including the Chainsaw. At this point the footage we saw at E3 Is obviously the QuakeCon footage. And now they've Improved and made It better.

To me this'll be the best DOOM release.

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The issue with the chainsaw was that most tougher enemies had too low a painchance for it to be all that reliable, and due to how it locks you onto the enemy it made dodging any sort of retaliation a pain. So lower-tier enemies are typically what I'd recommend using it against, as they consistently go down easily and are small enough for the melee bug to not take effect. Only issue being that weaker monsters are usually encountered in groups, so unless you jump them from around a corner or sit in a corner (and hope that hellknight doesn't get here too quickly), they'll all gang up on you while you're on this one guy and rip you to shreds. In effect, the chainsaw has always felt like a finicky gimmick weapon and I've never bothered to use it unless I really had to, barring maybe Doom 64, where it at least does more damage and might even be a wee bit faster (?). It's one thing I wish this game didn't carry over from the originals to such an extent, since it does all the things I hate (locking you in place), and so far it hasn't been revealed to at least have a mode where you can just slash at an enemy without going into all-out death hug mode.

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Would id allow the chainsawing of the Cyberdemon?
Yes, its a boss, but that shouldn't be restricted
Think-BFG hurts Cyberdemon, but not the chainsaw.

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Voros said:

Would id allow the chainsawing of the Cyberdemon?
Yes, its a boss, but that shouldn't be restricted
Think-BFG hurts Cyberdemon, but not the chainsaw.

What if the new bfg is basically a boss sized chain saw with range? Speaking of witch I'm suprised I'm not seeing complaints about Id changing the way the bfg works, while I personally Dislike the bfg and feel it undermines some of the strategic gameplay from doom I'v noticed many enjoy it. Is that something people just arn't noticing or is everyone just magically ok with change for once?

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The only "change" they've said they've made is that there is a dedicated button for it so you can access it more quickly. They haven't shown or discussed exactly how the gun functions yet. And I doubt they will before release.

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Jaxxoon R said:

Doom 64, where it at least does more damage and might even be a wee bit faster (?).


When checking the code for D64Ex, i saw it calls A_Saw twice during its firing state, so it practically does double the damage of the pc Chainsaw and also being much more prone to pain-locking a lot of enemies, pinkies are no match for it.

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TheGamePhilosophe said:

I'd take his claim with a grain of salt. A lot of the new Doom fanboys around here are fond of saying "it will be this way, Marty said so..." But when you investigate further, you find out that all that was said was some vague statement that could be interpreted in a number of ways. It's a real trend here.

For example, the debate over upgrades and character building. Just a week ago, the fanboys on this site were swearing up and down that there was absolutely no character building, and shouting down anybody that disagreed, because of some BS PR type statement from Marty that, again, was not at all clear. Then real concrete evidence showed up that made it very clear that indeed there is an upgrade system in which you invest points earned into weapon abilities, i.e., character building.

Now, the same fanboys have done a complete 180, talking about how awesome Doom's character building system is, and telling anyone that disagrees they need to get with the 21st century.

Prior to that, it was the speed issue. People worried the game looked slow. The fanboys said "it was just a stage demo," it will actually be really fast because "Marty said so." Then we get the alpha, and it isn't fast. Now the same fanboys will tell you that it's stupid to want the game to be fast.

Before that it was PC modding. You can guess how that "discussion" went.

Basically, what we've got is a block of fanboys that swallow whole every bit of PR that comes out about this game. And when it is revealed that they were wrong or misled, instead of getting upset at the people that burned them, they just change their position to fit whatever the new status quo is and insult anyone that doesn't toe the line.


You don't like the game? Great, we don't care, some of us do. We want to give the game a chance. Don't like the people here? Then GTFO. This place isn't a shithole like /v/

I can also take your arguments and apply them to people who will look for every little thing to nitpick and make the most retarded assumptions about the game.

Hofmann said:

I've seen a lot of whining/complaining/ranting and other retarded bullshit, but this guy is just special, it's like he wants this new Doom to be the worst game ever made, and to prove that the developers are the biggest liars in the world.


There's plenty of people like him.

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quakke said:

It's not 5sec kill animation because id even stated in an interview they want the glorykills to be relatively fast to not slowdown the pace of the game. But manual chainsawing would also be cool indeed.


According to an interview (forgot which one) there are upgrades that not only make the fatalities faster but also increase your running speed.

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The chainsaw looks badass, not to mention cutting demons to pieces with it will surely be fun and gory to say, but then again, the more gore the better, for me that is, since i'm a sadistic gore addict.
As for the fuel, there's nothing to worry about, chainsaw or not, there are multiple ways to separate the demon limbs from their bodies.

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I thought about how the chainsaw could function in a way I'LL like it. Can be subjective to others.

-The chainsaw would have two modes: one being the mode we've seen in the trailers, where a certain fuel amount can eviscerate any demon, whatever HP is has. And the kill done with fuel would be done in a matter of seconds. It would also increase drop chance of items, as the article about it mentioned.
-The other mode being the classic chainsaw we know, where you continuously saw a bastard until enough blood/organs went out of him. This can work if you don't have enough fuel to perform the previous function, or you just want to save the fuel for a bigger enemy. This way of killing would NOT yield as many drops, but you save fuel.

This seems to be the best way the chainsaw can work. For it can serve as a anti-weapon for any strong demon waiting, and as a finishing weapon if you have low-health enemy waiting. It's two mode can sastify the playstyle of seeing extreme cinematic violence, or basic but gratifying sawing.

Whether or not this is just fantasizing about a thing that would probably never happen, i do hope this is how the chainsaw would be once we get our hands on it. Maybe they have a better idea how it can work. Who knows?

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Adding fuel to the chainsaw is probably one of the dumber gameplay decisions for Doom 4, that and the insectoid face looking Cyberdemon and cyclops Mancubus.

What happened to having the chainsaw similar to Doom 3's?

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