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Decay

Multiplayer Mapping in Groups

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Hi there. I am Decay, new to these forums but not new to Doom, mapping, or groups. I am known for many terrible things which usually outweigh the good things I do but for now I'd like to talk about mapping in groups particularly for multiplayer. This thread is meant for new mappers and old mappers alike, because I think multiplayer mapping can be quite difficult.

So I'll call this mapping with the bourgeoisie. Who are we? This "group" is better known as The Mechanix Union and A3, and since both of our names already got dragged through the mud here by metalguy213 (a bad mapper) and capo (a shit person), I figured it’s time for us to actually step up to the plate and offer some advice/story telling because why not. Together we have worked on more than 10 projects in some capacity, whether this means testing/feedback or actually making maps, and have been around for quite some time, so we know what we are talking about.

Lesson #1: Let a group project grow organically.
It is kind of shitty to see a project crop up that basically begs other people to do the work for one person. Awesome DM is a prime example of what NOT to do in this case. When you have a mapping group, you need to talk to each other a lot. More importantly, you need to PLAY a lot with each other. If you don't play the game how are you supposed to understand what makes a good multiplayer map? Get on teamspeak or IRC and really get to know who you are working with.

My first hand at doom builder dates back to 2007 and boy were those maps pieces of shit (inb4 decay you are still a shitty mapper). Yet I wanted to make a huge project, a full megawad all on my own. This never came to fruition and I quickly lost interest when I found out how time consuming this was, disappearing from Doom until late 2009 and reopening doombuilder in late 2010. I had found a group of people to map with, an old clan called Machine Shop, which eventually put out MS Duel in the first couple days of 2011. The wad contained 35 new-school duel maps, and we had a project we could be happy with at the time. The Mechanix Union, the main mapping group, came out from here to work on later projects.


MXU got some extra people and we worked on several projects, which while looking nice in some ways I hold serious reservations about playability. Organic growth in terms of what projects you want to do is better than really slating yourself (and others) down for a mapset you're not really that invested in. For us it was Overload and Harvester, which did have some cool stuff going on (at least I think) but suffered from lack of good testing and not realizing some basic issues (ie who really wants to play this, is the concept well thought out or is it one person really enforcing a particular direction).

Lesson #2: Know your groups limitations.
It's super important to make sure the multiplayer wads actually play well. It's cool to make a wad look great, but if it plays like shit, it's shit. A lot of people like to cite Greenwar 2 for this, or the god-awful Gothic99, and it's definitely true. Did you actually test your maps before you released them? Too many don't. Sometimes it isn't their fault, but this is one really good reason why having a group is important.

Velocity CTF is a wad that I have too many regrets about. It was not tested by great CTF players and so we ended up missing out on a lot of problems that were left in the wad, and these days I can't stand playing it.

Eventually MXU hooked up with A3 and the A3 conspiracy was born. This was pretty important as the mappers met with the players and one mapper, Rustking who was working on EonDm at the time.RageCTF, a far superior map pack, was eventually created, with some stumbles along the way as Grymmoire went on maternity leave, some mappers were unsatisfied with low wages, etc.

Lesson #3: Accept criticism and build off each other.
Some of the best maps comes from getting competitive with each other. Mappers also need to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that their shit is just not good. But there is a fine line to tread here. Sometimes the mad shit-talk can be very demoralizing, but at the same time very helpful. Sometimes as someone giving criticism, you need to know when to be harsh and when to be gentle.

Too often I see multiplayer striven strewn with an inconsistent level of detail or playability. Wads that stand the test of time and are remembered are usually fairly consistent in some degree. When you're mapping with a group, use each other to push yourselves to map better. While not exactly a "competition" per se, do you really want your map to be known as the shit map of a project? To be always skipped? "Oh god not this garbage again. Callvote next map." Step your game up to match your peers or try and set the bar and challenge them to match YOU.

Lesson #4: Learn to let shit go and just release something.
CoreCTF2 is the biggest tease you'll ever see never actually released. There are a plethora of reasons for this, bad testers probably being one of them, lack of confidence in one's decisions another, but that's neither here or there.

Reworking maps over and over and testing them to death can lead precisely to that: death. This is a craft-hobby, not a life's work. And while it's good not to strive for mediocrity, sometimes you gotta let layouts die and see things just out for people to enjoy. If you test something forever for the tiniest little changes, you will never want to play those maps again. Learn when it's time to let things lay in the recycle bin, and get your damn wad released proper so we don't have to download it x times only to find out a spawn moved 4 units to the left.

Lesson #5: Innovate and grow with the group
Stagnating and making the same thing over and over again gets tiresome not only from the mapper perspective but also from the player perspective. Sorry Doomkid et al but it's like, goddamn it can we see something new? But I've already told you this in person so you know what I think :)

After RageCTF as a group we did nothing but play hearts (yea that card game) and nightly LMS sessions on a bunch of different wads over TeamSpeak, and it was a ton of fun. We also got a keen sense of what makes good dm maps and how to make good flow in maps by doing this. More importantly some of us improved in actual skill which in turn makes our mapping better. We decided collectively we could make our own LMS set that would be good, and this included some first time mappers. Don't Be a Bitch was the result of this, and within a week we had 13 new maps. We decided to be inventive and make use of advanced port features not usually seen as well as fit the maps to the brim with easter eggs that had us laughing for quite some time. It is honestly one of the funnest DM packs I've played in a long time along with having a consistent level of detail.


Lesson #6: Grow and inspire
So we've been mapping and playing together for a long time now. Our particular problem is most of us are older, have full time jobs or school, and don't have the time to do what we used to. But we still like to map and play! Your group has to evolve and inspire others to work with you. We decided to work on a small extra pack for DBAB called AeonDM (yes a play on Rustking's EonDM) that features many of the same things DBAB did, but also trying to push it further. We've got one person interested in making a map for it who has never mapped before, and while it's only one person, I think it's very important that you inspire people to map and hopefully map with you, because that's the only way Doom modding will continue to thrive (or survive) and that's with inspiration. We've also tried expanding with a Strife Project, a Hexen DM Project, made a very newschool duel set called Progressive Duel, and do a bunch of other stuff including survival COOP sessions, some mod-play, and SP mapping that Grymmoire will never finish because of his busy family life.

On that note, if you're interested in working with us on Aeon, hit me up and we'll talk about it! We would definitely like to work with and see fresh blood. Download Teamspeak 3 if you want to chat with us @ 67.80.37.169, or IRC, in a variety of places. If you use esper.net, come to #mxu. If you use zanirc, come find people in #a3 or #deathmatch. If you prefer forum contact, check us out at Mxu's site or send a pm here.

TL;DR

A good team is one that can give constructive feedback and take it, work together, and play together. More importantly probably competent team is one that inspires the others on the team to do better, and through getting to know each other, playing with each other often, etc, will have good projects grow organically. Stop striving for mediocrity and making the MP packs look so half-assed.

If you have any valuable input, please do add!

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Glad to see you here, Decay. Any mapping group that comes together organically, I'd want to be a part of it, in the very least to offer some experience and feedback, help newbies where they need it and so on.

When you have a mapping group, you need to talk to each other a lot. More importantly, you need to PLAY a lot with each other. If you don't play the game how are you supposed to understand what makes a good multiplayer map? Get on teamspeak or IRC and really get to know who you are working with.

Literally the most invaluable multiplayer-oriented statement in DW history.

All the various lessons presented here need to be heeded by those who want to get serious about DM/MP mapping. Little personal anecdote here, I was "OS only" mapping for the last 2 or 3 years, til about 6 months ago. (My SP maps are still OS, but that's SP so wgaf.) I feel I limited myself unnecessarily by trying to fit everything into the vanilla envelope. I cut myself off from cool mapping possibilities. My reason was for cross-port compatibility, but it's important to remember that all 3 online Doom ports support zdoom bridges, sloped terrain, deep water - All these things can be used to strengthen your map's playability, the only cost being your Chocolate Doom DM fanbase, which is 0.003% of the DM population. If you do decide to make something Zandronum-only, you will limit your playerbase a little more, but you'll also open up even more potential for scripting/advanced mapping. (I use all 3 source ports so I get to enjoy it all!! Muahahaha....)

If you are absolutely set on vanilla mapping, at least remember that custom textures and flats are still be used in excess. As stated, for a long while I was obsessed with making iwad-like DM maps, but I'm telling you now, new textures are exciting and fun to use and offer more variety for your player's eyes.

Long story short, no matter what you do, take feedback for what it is: Player's opinions on what will make your map more enjoyable. Be sure to get feedback from various places. I think Decay's post made lots of strong points, and I'll try to summarize: Effort, playtesting and feedback are the keys to DM mapping success. Take it from someone who has released both flops and hits - Following these strategies will ensure your mapping efforts are enjoyed more by both yourself and other Doomers.

Spoiler

ALSO DUDE CHECK OUT KID DUEL 2 beta thingy which I've probably shown you all 999 times over the last few months but who cares its like way less dwangofied and iwad texturing that my previous wads, thanks injoy

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I'd like to participate in a group if I may. I could use some voices other than my own, which up until now keep shouting at me that I suck before my maps are even remotely done.

If anyone's organizing something or has something that could use some new blood, please contact me. I think ive been looking for some serious constructive criticism from someone other than myself. Ive contemplated just sucking it up and making some standalone maps to release on wads and mods but getting feedback from everybody at once seems a little intimidating.

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Decay said:

already got dragged through the mud here by metalguy213 (a bad mapper)


Are you fucking seriously???
You won't dare offend me in this thread automaticly.
:L

Alright... i've started Mapping in 2014 but my maps are shittier but now in 2016 aleast something to elevate to my Skills and everything more... :S

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Doomkid said:

Glad to see you here, Decay. Any mapping group that comes together organically, I'd want to be a part of it, in the very least to offer some experience and feedback, help newbies where they need it and so on.

Literally the most invaluable multiplayer-oriented statement in DW history.

All the various lessons presented here need to be heeded by those who want to get serious about DM/MP mapping. Little personal anecdote here, I was "OS only" mapping for the last 2 or 3 years, til about 6 months ago. (My SP maps are still OS, but that's SP so wgaf.) I feel I limited myself unnecessarily by trying to fit everything into the vanilla envelope. I cut myself off from cool mapping possibilities. My reason was for cross-port compatibility, but it's important to remember that all 3 online Doom ports support zdoom bridges, sloped terrain, deep water - All these things can be used to strengthen your map's playability, the only cost being your Chocolate Doom DM fanbase, which is 0.003% of the DM population. If you do decide to make something Zandronum-only, you will limit your playerbase a little more, but you'll also open up even more potential for scripting/advanced mapping. (I use all 3 source ports so I get to enjoy it all!! Muahahaha....)

If you are absolutely set on vanilla mapping, at least remember that custom textures and flats are still be used in excess. As stated, for a long while I was obsessed with making iwad-like DM maps, but I'm telling you now, new textures are exciting and fun to use and offer more variety for your player's eyes.

Long story short, no matter what you do, take feedback for what it is: Player's opinions on what will make your map more enjoyable. Be sure to get feedback from various places. I think Decay's post made lots of strong points, and I'll try to summarize: Effort, playtesting and feedback are the keys to DM mapping success. Take it from someone who has released both flops and hits - Following these strategies will ensure your mapping efforts are enjoyed more by both yourself and other Doomers.

Thanks Doomkid, it's about time the man with the fat smile arrived. Yea your self-limitations were, while admirable, ridiculous. On the note of using custom textures, it's actually really important because damn man we have played dm on the same looking maps for the past 22 years can we please have something new? "B-b-b-but DWANGO!" Nobody fucking plays dwango anymore, for good reason.

Doomkid said:

Spoiler

ALSO DUDE CHECK OUT KID DUEL 2 beta thingy which I've probably shown you all 999 times over the last few months but who cares its like way less dwangofied and iwad texturing that my previous wads, thanks injoy

You'll need to keep reminding me, otherwise I'll forget guaranteed. Get on TS more often and maybe we'll get to play them.

40oz said:

I'd like to participate in a group if I may. I could use some voices other than my own, which up until now keep shouting at me that I suck before my maps are even remotely done.

If anyone's organizing something or has something that could use some new blood, please contact me. I think ive been looking for some serious constructive criticism from someone other than myself. Ive contemplated just sucking it up and making some standalone maps to release on wads and mods but getting feedback from everybody at once seems a little intimidating.

The thing you'll need to understand is that instead of your voices saying your map sucks, it's going to be other people saying that sometimes. Other times they'll say it's great. Especially with multiplayer mapping, it's VERY IMPORTANT not to invest much time and labour into a map. If you look at the projects we've done over time, for example with DBAB, each map looked worse than 1993 when we play tested them. No detail at all allows the maps to be easily modifiable to make sure it plays well before it looks good.

Capo said:

I dunno why you care about how ppl lead their projects. Like its none of your bussines at all?

I'm not sure why I'm even gracing you with a reply. To be fair, I don't expect people like you to read all that. I don't expect you could even read through a Dr. Seuss book honestly. It's not that I care how other people lead their projects, it's more along the lines of I'm tired of seeing subpar multiplayer releases that could've been so much better if people understood what a group project really meant.

Metalguy said:

Are you fucking seriously???
You won't dare offend me in this thread automaticly.
:L

Alright... i've started Mapping in 2014 but my maps are shittier but now in 2016 aleast something to elevate to my Skills and everything more... :S

I don't even understand what the second line means, and frankly don't care. Dude your maps are bad, you don't take criticism at all, and you are a horrible project leader. That's all that needs to be said.

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I dunno the whole first post seems be useless for me. Its just some propaganda of MXU and even A3 (lol?). Like name me here projects made by group of ppl which were bad and shit. Simple name one. And if the whole post is made for metalguy213 and me. Then GJ. :D

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Thanks decay :)

I know all too well about not getting too clingy to your own maps and trusting people with their criticism. I'm also pretty good at sticking with barebones layouts until I'm comfortable with the design before detailing. I'd just like the opportunity to work with some strong MP players and mappers. :D

I think it could benefit my mapping and my confidence as a whole.

Btw I love this subforum doomkid, thanks for being a nut about getting it up :P

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Decay said:

I don't even understand what the second line means, and frankly don't care. Dude your maps are bad, you don't take criticism at all, and you are a horrible project leader. That's all that needs to be said.


To End this Crappack of Awesome DM.. i don't wanna fight with MXU again but.. that means then i'll need to repast that My Father...... and then i have to try to modify the maps Over over 9001 Times to the death.....

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MetalGuy213 said:

To End this Crappack of Awesome DM.. i don't wanna fight with MXU again but.. that means then i'll need to repast that My Father...... and then i have to try to modify the maps Over over 9001 Times to the death.....


Can't tell if this was supposed to be 'funny' or not.... Also, what does "repast that My Father" means?

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capodecima said:

Like name me here projects made by group of ppl which were bad and shit.

I know a shitty project, it's called FWCTF.

Maybe if you followed some of Decay's advice, your pack wouldn't have been such garbage.

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To be fair to Capo, nothing could improve the monstrosity called FWCTF. Take a look at this garbage.
Now this is a great example of a wad outcome you wish to avoid. By striving for mediocrity (or in this case, striving for something that can even be played) you have something that a) everyone will ridicule, and rightly so, and b) nobody will play because it's total trash.

Groups that play often together should take things that they found enjoyable in other maps and try to incorporate them into their own. It might make them better.

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Oh ye i see yout point. I really wish you the moment when ppl pop up with their groups making best maps and they will say "we should never make this good group without Decay". I think its not this much sci-fi tbh. :)

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Jesus no wonder he was losered while I was asleep, not surprised at all. Sticking your head in the sand to mapping criticism = you won't get very far!

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Tiger said:

Also, what does "repast that My Father" means?

Means then i need read all these ideas and Map ideas over and over... Stand Aloning 1 Map.. then checking it... if is bad i'll trying and trying again to the death... that does mean... Mah Boi.

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MetalGuy213 said:

Means then i need read all these ideas and Map ideas over and over... Stand Aloning 1 Map.. then checking it... if is bad i'll trying and trying again to the death... that does mean...


I can't decipher this; I am starting to think that you're making up words as you go, which is not proper English. If I were to look up 'My Father' (noun, as used in context and capitalized) in the dictionary, I am certainly positive I will not find anything close to what you stated.

MetalGuy213 said:

Mah Boi.


Don't call me that.

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Have to say after making maps and participating in testing sessions for Don't Be A Bitch that all that Decay has said is true when it comes to making a successful project that's fun to make and fun to play. Luckily for our group it wasn't a hassle to test the maps out in public or private sessions and sometimes they'd be multiple times per week.

One thing that most of these projects need to be open towards is public criticism as well as criticism made during testing sessions. For some of the maps in testing sessions the critique could get pretty raw and aggressive if a map was bad and didn't look like it was going to make it past the layout phase. Most of the people whose maps took particularly harsh criticisms usually took the opportunity to improve upon the map and do something great with it instead of being discouraged from making progress, though there were a couple of instances where this did happen and the maps that were subject to this were eventually ousted either by the end of DBAB3's development or DBAB Remastered.

I'd say an important lesson to take from this project's development is to make the best out of any constructive criticism you can get or your project will most likely not go very far, as well as to make the time to improve upon your projects and to challenge yourself to another level of mapping.

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