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Amph

So what you think about the items that are given away from the enemies's death?

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The only thing that bothered me about the "pinata effect" was that all the items are like neon glowing Christmas lights, but if you can disable that glowy effect I'm really not bothered.

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TheGamePhilosophe said:

There's no risk, as you are invulnerable during GKs. This was confirmed in an interview with Stratton which someone posted here a little while ago. So far, I haven't seen any downside (tactically speaking) for doing a GK whenever you can, only pluses.

While I don't disagree with some of the things you are saying, you are missing my point a bit, which is simply this: when health and ammo were laid out in the level, they were a resource you had control over and thus another variable you had to play with. Crucially, you could pass on the ammo/health and save it for later.


You are at risk ANY time you have to completely stop and then get moving again in the midst of a firefight, even if you're invulnerable during the glory kill itself. People who have played the game have even discussed this risk specifically.

Also, in the demos we've seen, ammo and other items are also in the game world itself, as are the upgrades id have discussed, so exploration and resource conservation is not being tossed out the window by any means.

Regardless, I understand if the point you're making is that you can longer pass up health or save it for later, but whether or not this makes the game more casual depends entirely on how much health enemies dispense, coupled with how much damage they do. That's where the game will depend on the balance between the point values of damage and health pick-ups.


TheGamePhilosophe said:

The game itself decides what health/ammo you will get based on need, and it gets sucked up automatically by your character.


Where have you read this? I haven't heard or read anything about how the game decides what you get. As far as any of us know, it's completely random.

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Doomkid said:

The only thing that bothered me about the "pinata effect" was that all the items are like neon glowing Christmas lights, but if you can disable that glowy effect I'm really not bothered.


Have people forgotten what video games are? That sounds like something from a video game. I don't see what the big freakin' deal is.

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GoatLord said:

Have people forgotten what video games are? That sounds like something from a video game. I don't see what the big freakin' deal is.

Technology has evolved so much that a very realistic game can be produced and used by consumers. Meaning hi red textures,models,sounds,etc.

Back then, such things were a part of our imagination of the future, so they had stick with pixels that doesn't show good detail up close, keeping maps in a format that the PC can handle at least, adding unrealistic things (doomguy's immense speed) for the entertainment.

I think the deal is that this new in the franchise. And confusion and chaos occurs.
Thankfully, the neon glow is optional (right?)

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GoatLord said:

Have people forgotten what video games are? That sounds like something from a video game. I don't see what the big freakin' deal is.

Items brighter than everything else on screen exploding out of enemies wasn't exceedingly common in the old days either, unless it matched up with the other art assets or made some sort of sense otherwise.

Bright glowy shit is awesome when it fits in. In an environment like Doom4's, it totally does not fit in, not in mass numbers anyway. I'm just talking about how overbearingly bright and glowy they appear to be, its not the items I mind, its the 9999 watt LEDs in each one that are kinda questionable. If it can be toggled there's literally no issue far as I'm concerned.

If you look closely in old DOS games you'll notice only mega powerups are usually that bright. Health bonuses and stimpacks were never fullbright or glowing.

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Doomkid said:

Bright glowy shit is awesome when it fits in. In an environment like Doom4's, it totally does not fit in, not in mass numbers anyway.


But that's why it looks cool. The juxtaposition.

And it's not like the piñata pickups are the only glowy things in the game. The piñata items, the glowing powerups and items scattered around the environment, the neon fluorescent lighting around the environments and on some of the enemies, the glowing effect when enemies can be glory killed, the glowing projectiles from enemies, the bright yellow/blue/red doors, etc.

iD definitely had a clear vision in mind to use bright glowing colors juxtaposed against darker, grittier colors, primarily for items of interest. It serves as both an interesting visual aesthetic and a gameplay purpose.

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Voros said:

Technology has evolved so much that a very realistic game can be produced and used by consumers. Meaning hi red textures,models,sounds,etc.

Back then, such things were a part of our imagination of the future, so they had stick with pixels that doesn't show good detail up close, keeping maps in a format that the PC can handle at least, adding unrealistic things (doomguy's immense speed) for the entertainment.

I think the deal is that this new in the franchise. And confusion and chaos occurs.
Thankfully, the neon glow is optional (right?)


lol

the question was whether having ammo drops affected gameplay's immersion and balance or not

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DooM_RO said:

Mate, it really sounds like you really hate the game, don't like anything about it and are really bitter about it so why are you still wasting your time with it?

Is it really so inconceivable to you that some people LIKE the game? It really sounds like you're confusing this place with Reddit or /v/ or some other retarded shithole.

Why you make such an assumption? Just because he's really cautious about all that item drop system that may result in casualisation? It is a pretty damn valid concern! And those people who may like it should also be worried....it's a doom community not some fanboy fest. And as a doom community everyone here shoult take this new item drop system with a bit of salt. It's not hating the game, it's just a common sense, something that fanboys really lacking sometimes.

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id.dav said:

Why you make such an assumption? Just because he's really cautious about all that item drop system that may result in casualisation? It is a pretty damn valid concern! And those people who may like it should also be worried....it's a doom community not some fanboy fest. And as a doom community everyone here shoult take this new item drop system with a bit of salt. It's not hating the game, it's just a common sense, something that fanboys really lacking sometimes.


I don't say things like these lightly. Just check his post history. He literally signed here just so he could shit on the new Doom and making the most conspirational assumptions and being smug to people who disagree with him, just like places like /v/, Reddit or Neogaf. People around here are not like that.

And before you call me a fanboy let me say that I don't really like the health system either but it won't break the game for me. So far at least the positives outweigh the negatives.

P.S The ORIGINAL Doom has always been casual. People have been to spoilt by their Sunlusts and Scythe 2s to remember how the original Doom was like.

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id.dav said:

Just because he's really cautious about all that item drop system that may result in casualisation? It is a pretty damn valid concern! And those people who may like it should also be worried....it's a doom community not some fanboy fest. And as a doom community everyone here shoult take this new item drop system with a bit of salt.


Why are people so afraid of trying new things? If there were only health and ammo pick-ups without drops no one would even give shit because that is old Doom stuff. People wouldn't even realize that pick-ups mechanic can also be casualised, for instance in Doom 3 my armor rarely dropped under 80%. It doesn't matter if it's new, what matters is that it's well balanced.

id.dav said:

It's not hating the game, it's just a common sense, something that fanboys really lacking sometimes.


It is actually irrational hate towards everything that is new and not exactly like old Doom, just look at his other irrational retarded hate posts. Also, I don't see fanboys here only people who chose not to hate the game if there is no rational reason, and want to give new stuff a chance. Stop living in the past people, for fucks sake.

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Hofmann said:

Why are people so afraid of trying new things? Stop living in the past people, for fucks sake.


(above shortened to the points I am specifically going to address)

No offense but I hate this argument. I don't think I am irrationally against new things or am against new things for being new (not saying your comment was directed at me as my problem with the system is mostly form a visual perspective anyway) and find it to be a tad ridiculous that peoples concerns with systems are just dismissed as being anti new.

I think it is a legitimate perspective to expect Doom to be, well, Doom. If I wanted something new that was distinctly not doom then why wouldn't I go play halo? call of duty? maybe I want something more old school but different, so how about serious sam or painkiller? It doesn't make sense to claim people are 'just' living in the past because they expect to get from a franchise what it is known for. I mean what if doom 4 was a tennis game instead? Or perhaps closer to home, an actual skateboarding or swimming game (referencing dev comments)? That certainly would be new, and it certainly would not be Doom.

Yes, some people can be a tad too strict and closed to new ideas but it isn't fair to completely dismiss the argument and insult them just because they expect the series to deliver what they always loved about it.

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asura said:

(above shortened to the points I am specifically going to address)

No offense but I hate this argument. I don't think I am irrationally against new things or am against new things for being new (not saying your comment was directed at me as my problem with the system is mostly form a visual perspective anyway) and find it to be a tad ridiculous that peoples concerns with systems are just dismissed as being anti new.

I think it is a legitimate perspective to expect Doom to be, well, Doom. If I wanted something new that was distinctly not doom then why wouldn't I go play halo? call of duty? maybe I want something more old school but different, so how about serious sam or painkiller? It doesn't make sense to claim people are 'just' living in the past because they expect to get from a franchise what it is known for. I mean what if doom 4 was a tennis game instead? Or perhaps closer to home, an actual skateboarding or swimming game (referencing dev comments)? That certainly would be new, and it certainly would not be Doom.

Yes, some people can be a tad too strict and closed to new ideas but it isn't fair to completely dismiss the argument and insult them just because they expect the series to deliver what they always loved about it.


it is by no means bad to point out flaws regarding the game as its pretty much stated all around that the game (from a gameplay point of view at least somewhat) looks decent, even though this doesnt magically put aside the different host of problems that might come with it, in fact, its virtually impossible not to considering the large amounts of people out there, mainly hardcore fanboys who genuinely want this game to be good and ID definitely wont be able to please everyone

I absolutely understand what youre meaning to say with how you believe people with distinctive opinions or with cynical/realistic(or subjective) point of views are being oftentimes overlooked as shitposting, but the thing is people here and in some certain places out there are more than satisfied with how ID has been choosing what to show off and what not to (from a personal standpoint for instance, as well as how their emphasis on LE RIP AND TEAR 2KOOL marketing standpoint is tickling off a lot of people), and judging from what we've seen thus far about the game it doesnt really seem to be drifting away much from the original idea of 'just shoot demons, story is just kinda there if you want it', it has the right combat pace, it has the atmosphere, it has the sound quality, as well as the overall feel, but it's only when people get really, as in REALLY REALLY technical about the game and start nitpicking everything that they start only seeing negative stuff about it and starts blocking out their clear view on the game (there are people who even went as far as to say the game's level design looks linear based on fucking doomguy's design of all things for fucks sake) and its at that point where it certainly becomes subject of 'you know, youll just have to wait until the game releases or we get some new info'

it's an entirely different thing to blindlessly come into a discussion forum and stumble upon everybody here by saying the game is a casual fest dumbed down for console kids (when we very well have evidence that the game is more than already difficult enough and allows for far more playability wise than what we've been let see regardless of system, such as snapmap and the leaked confirmation of PC exclusive mod tools) just because X factor was altered in this new instance and therefore is bad because it's not the same as it used to be and the entire thing just fucking sucks

it's even more of a problem when you have an entire record of having done nothing but sparse vitriol around and doing nothing but act like a passive aggressive moron, because not only do you start painting a rather bad picture of you, but for everyone else who comes in and sees one of your posts and automatically goes into 'man, not this guy again'

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Hofmann said:

It doesn't matter if it's new, what matters is that it's well balanced.

Seriously quoting my words from the past)

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Hofmann said:

It is actually irrational hate towards everything that is new and not exactly like old Doom, just look at his other irrational retarded hate posts. Also, I don't see fanboys here only people who chose not to hate the game if there is no rational reason, and want to give new stuff a chance. Stop living in the past people, for fucks sake.

Well if it is hate for the sake of hate then it's retarted, but i'm not defending anybody, I just share the valid concern of item drop system and that it might be not well done, not the feature itself but as you said - the balance.

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DooM_RO said:

And before you call me a fanboy let me say that I don't really like the health system either but it won't break the game for me. So far at least the positives outweigh the negatives.

P.S The ORIGINAL Doom has always been casual. People have been to spoilt by their Sunlusts and Scythe 2s to remember how the original Doom was like.

Never called anybody a fanboy. Positives sure as hell overwight negatives otherwise we wouldn't be as hyped as we are, now would we?)
Yeah I must admit I spoiled by my Plutonias 2 and Alien Vendetass))

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asura said:

(above shortened to the points I am specifically going to address)

No offense but I hate this argument. I don't think I am irrationally against new things or am against new things for being new (not saying your comment was directed at me as my problem with the system is mostly form a visual perspective anyway) and find it to be a tad ridiculous that peoples concerns with systems are just dismissed as being anti new.


No offense taken. Hes argument wasn't dismissed based on being anti new, I think you missed the point a bit. Hes argument was refuted in a number of ways for a number of reasons, please read the entire conversation starting from page 3, I sure can't explain it again. Though, he was attacked personally because of he's shitty irrational hating attitude.

asura said:

I think it is a legitimate perspective to expect Doom to be, well, Doom. If I wanted something new that was distinctly not doom then why wouldn't I go play halo? call of duty? maybe I want something more old school but different, so how about serious sam or painkiller? It doesn't make sense to claim people are 'just' living in the past because they expect to get from a franchise what it is known for. I mean what if doom 4 was a tennis game instead? Or perhaps closer to home, an actual skateboarding or swimming game (referencing dev comments)? That certainly would be new, and it certainly would not be Doom.


You are exaggerating a bit with the examples here. Are you the one who decides what is Doom and what isn't? Everybody has their own opinion of what Doom is. I was only trying to say that new things should be tried because there is no improvement if the game stays exactly the same, and it's not like Doom is losing it's identity by trying to introduce the item drop mechanic. It's still Doom, well not for everybody cause the identity of Doom is entirely subjective.

asura said:

Yes, some people can be a tad too strict and closed to new ideas but it isn't fair to completely dismiss the argument and insult them just because they expect the series to deliver what they always loved about it.


Again, you missed the point. Sorry if insulted anyone by saying that they live in the past it was not my intention.

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asura said:

I think it is a legitimate perspective to expect Doom to be, well, Doom. If I wanted something new that was distinctly not doom then why wouldn't I go play halo? call of duty....

Well it is as close to Doom as we can get indeed. Just cos it has new item drop system surely dosn't make it less Doom...and really there's nothing like that in the market at all with all the new shadow warriors and other old school wannabe fps. But I think we all slowly getting to a conclusion that we just need to wait and see, both dislikers and likers, to see how it is integrated and how good it works.
I'd like to once again bring up the example of Resi 4, game that have item drops...it appears that villagers, cultists and monsters can drop any ammo or medkit...but the way it was all balanced and randomised made that game so fucking fun.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

But that's why it looks cool. The juxtaposition.

And it's not like the piñata pickups are the only glowy things in the game. The piñata items, the glowing powerups and items scattered around the environment, the neon fluorescent lighting around the environments and on some of the enemies, the glowing effect when enemies can be glory killed, the glowing projectiles from enemies, the bright yellow/blue/red doors, etc.

iD definitely had a clear vision in mind to use bright glowing colors juxtaposed against darker, grittier colors, primarily for items of interest. It serves as both an interesting visual aesthetic and a gameplay purpose.


I get all that, I just feel like glowing ammo and stimpacks and stuff just seems weird. Doom3 had a great approach, put a small, non-immersion-destroying light on medpacks and armor shards without having them glowing like a jack-o-lantern or christmas ball or whatever. That's honestly my only gripe - Ammo doesn't have to be all glowy, to me it really does look silly and not the good kind. It's honestly my only complaint and not at all a big deal, but I think a lot of people agree that it looks out of place, while not being bothered by the gameplay mechanic itself. That's where I sit on it, anyway.

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I might as well toss my two cent onto this thread, and hope it doesn't piss anybody off.

The pinata thing is a mixed feeling for, mostly because i don't know much about it. It's a great incentive for players to keep on fighting instead of hiding back and fight by continuously peeping around the corner. If you're low on HP, you HAVE to fight against the demons to get it back. It also works as a good reason to perform glory kills which would otherwise result in you being up in your ass with demons all around.

Now the thing that pisses me of this is if it is the ONLY way to get substantial amount of health and ammo. The trailer has already shown pickups of such things already, so pickups around the map is a thing. HOWEVER, i'm worried that the health/ammo you gain from enemies > the health/ammo you get from around the map. It'll defeat the motivation of exploring the map for such supplies if just doing a kill would yield greater amounts of it. If it's going to be the other way around, then i'm up for the idea of it.

Another thing that would make me upset is the magnetic float the items do when near you. This can be proven VERY PROBLEMATIC if all pickups do this. Lets say youn have 99/100 shotgun shots, and you see a pack of 20 nearby. Then a fucking Cacodemon comes behind you, and you head towards the pack of shells. Well buddy, you just used 20 shells for 1. (Hell i can picture myself running from a pickup flying towards me that i dont want.) I REALLY HOPE this only happens to the pinata drops and not on every other pickup on the map. I would take the New Order approach of E pressed 120 times a second than this. OR better yet! Just walk over it like the old days!

So my preferred method of these pinata drops would be that they happen occasionally, and guarantee during glory kills. BUT the amount you get from such drops don't match to much bigger drops you find from exploration. If you're REALLY DYING, you can avoid a firefight and get a kit you left behind for such an occasion. If you're midly hurt, just get to that demon that hurted you, and use his innards as health kits!

Also the neon glow is a mixed feeling for me. It's definitely a way to tell which things are good and bad. Neon glow = good. Anything else = bad. But then if the glow of the icon can be seen from a mile away, then it's a very, well, distracting image on the screen.

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Hi folks i am a New member in this Forums,
So dont flame me for my Bad english and/or my personal opinions....Lol

I can live with the glowing pinyata items, for me is that glowing a part of the Hud in the combat helmet.
The technology of the helmet let all the needful items glow.....somehow like in the iron man helmet.

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Who doesn't like piñatas?
I will burst all the demons for goodies to obtain all the piñatas i don't get because i'm too old to get piñatas.

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Potatoguy said:

It'll defeat the motivation of exploring the map for such supplies if just doing a kill would yield greater amounts of it.


You don't explore the map for ammo and health, you explore it for finding upgrades secrets and completing challenges.

Potatoguy said:

Another thing that would make me upset is the magnetic float the items do when near you. This can be proven VERY PROBLEMATIC if all pickups do this. Lets say youn have 99/100 shotgun shots, and you see a pack of 20 nearby. Then a fucking Cacodemon comes behind you, and you head towards the pack of shells. Well buddy, you just used 20 shells for 1.


I don't think ammo will be that scarce, so don't worry about that. And not all pick-ups do it only monster drops.

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id.dav said:

Why you make such an assumption? Just because he's really cautious about all that item drop system that may result in casualisation? It is a pretty damn valid concern! And those people who may like it should also be worried....it's a doom community not some fanboy fest. And as a doom community everyone here shoult take this new item drop system with a bit of salt. It's not hating the game, it's just a common sense, something that fanboys really lacking sometimes.


Thanks id.dav. I'm just going to say a few things in response to the accusations being hurled at me in this thread and attempt to set the record straight.

I've never "shitposted" and I've never spewed "irrational hate" here. Generally speaking, what I've done is offer level-headed and reasoned arguments/views on the new Doom.

Sometimes I've presented opinions (with reasoning), and sometimes I've pushed back against the hype-train where I thought important things were being ignored or covered over in the name of "keeping the buzz" going.

For example, way back when SnapMap was revealed, and PC folks were getting concerned if there would be real modding tools, the guys who are currently calling me all sorts of names were telling people that mod support was confirmed, which they arrived at by twisting some vague PR statement from Marty Stratton at QuakeCon into what they wanted to hear. I dug around and found an interview with Pete Hines where he said no mod support was planned and also revealed some significant limitations to SnapMap (no outdoor areas). I started a thread here and it got picked up by the major gaming news outlets, which in turn forced id to address the issue directly (and as it stands today there is no mod support announced).

This is an example of my "shitposts" and "retarded" "irrational hate." And I invite anyone to go ahead I take a look at my post history and see for him or herself. Read carefully, and you will see that oftentimes, I don't even offer personal commentary or opinion on whether something is good or bad. I just lay out the facts as I see them and let people come to whatever conclusions they want. That's what I did with the SnapMap issue.

Then take a look too at how every time I've voiced a dissenting view, a certain cohort has tried to use personal insults and ad hominem attacks in order to "refute" me, arguing that if I don't like the game, then I don't have any business talking about it, and so on.

Who is really hateful, vile, and nasty here?

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TheGamePhilosophe said:

For example, way back when SnapMap was revealed, and PC folks were getting concerned if there would be real modding tools, the guys who are currently calling me all sorts of names were telling people that mod support was confirmed, which they arrived at by twisting some vague PR statement from Marty Stratton at QuakeCon into what they wanted to hear. I dug around and found an interview with Pete Hines where he said no mod support was planned and also revealed some significant limitations to SnapMap (no outdoor areas). I started a thread here and it got picked up by the major gaming news outlets, which in turn forced id to address the issue directly (and as it stands today there is no mod support announced).


Well this is half true. First Pete said that there will be no modding beyond SnapMap, then Marty said something vague at QuakeCon like "there will be, but something...". And then when someone asked Pete on twitter about the conflicting statements, he said that they are not thinking about releasing any modding tools beyond SnapMap at THAT POINT, but what will happen in the future that's up to id. Also it was leaked recently that there are modding tools called idStudio.

TheGamePhilosophe said:

This is an example of my "shitposts" and "retarded" "irrational hate." And I invite anyone to go ahead I take a look at my post history and see for him or herself. Read carefully, and you will see that oftentimes, I don't even offer personal commentary or opinion on whether something is good or bad. I just lay out the facts as I see them and let people come to whatever conclusions they want. That's what I did with the SnapMap issue.


You are such a fucking liar. You lay out everything but facts, only retarded assumptions that "imply" the game is going to be shit. The SnapMap thing is the ONLY time you didn't made up irrational assumptions, because the fact that PC wouldn't get modding tools beyond SnapMap (at that time) was bad enough already, you didn't had to make it look even worse. Nice move using the SnapMap thing for an example of how you "always" lay out only facts, you should work in the PR sector of a company or something.

TheGamePhilosophe said:

Then take a look too at how every time I've voiced a dissenting view, a certain cohort has tried to use personal insults and ad hominem attacks in order to "refute" me, arguing that if I don't like the game, then I don't have any business talking about it, and so on.

Who is really hateful, vile, and nasty here?


Another fucking lie. Your arguments were refuted with pure logic and reason. Nice playing the victim right there.

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Doomkid said:

I get all that, I just feel like glowing ammo and stimpacks and stuff just seems weird. Doom3 had a great approach, put a small, non-immersion-destroying light on medpacks and armor shards without having them glowing like a jack-o-lantern or christmas ball or whatever. That's honestly my only gripe - Ammo doesn't have to be all glowy, to me it really does look silly and not the good kind. It's honestly my only complaint and not at all a big deal, but I think a lot of people agree that it looks out of place, while not being bothered by the gameplay mechanic itself. That's where I sit on it, anyway.


I think the glowing of ammo and health is roughly analogous to the big, floating pickup sprites that were put in very sparsely detailed environments which means that not only they are very visible but they are also set in low detail environments, which made them stand out. As games became more detailed, this effect was lost.

You can't just put a big, floating and rotating pickup without it feeling a bit strange because of the REALISM. So pickups now have to be put in more realistic places. Let's say that a shotgun is leaning on an office desk. Now the designer can use all sorts of tricks to make sure the player sees it (lighting, blood trails etc.) but he can never be sure if all the players will see this crucial pickup. The shotgun could just blend in among all the other props such as a trash bin, a desk lamp, a computer etc. He also can't go overboard with the aforementioned techniques because it would feel weird, like something is obviously off. In classic Doom, the desk would be non-existent or very simplistic. The pickup would simply stand out in the environment. You can't do that in a modern setting without making it feel obvious.

So the solution to this is to give the item a glowing effect. You might say this would take away from the exploration but I think it's not that simple. I think there are two kinds of exploration. On a macro and micro scale. On a Macro scale it is exploring the LAYOUT and on a Micro scale it is searching through all the DETAILS of a small room, maybe two.

The original Doom without question has Macro exploration. You navigate the LAYOUT to find secrets and pickups. You rarely stop to look at small details.

Doom 3 on the other hand has Micro exploration. There are so many little details in the game that exploration on a Macro scale would become tedious. A secret would often have a switch in one room and the secret in the very same room. In the original it would be considered simplistic BUT in Doom 3 finding the switch in the first place is part of the secret hunting. Among all the computer panels, which one is interactible? This is why people think Doom 3 has linear or simplistic level design. While I do not outright deny and still think Id could have done more, I do think this argument is just a bit misguided. Finally, this kind of exploration slows down gameplay. You have to stop searching for the tiny switch inside a room instead of blazing through the level and finding hints on the fly.

What they want to do in Doom 4 is they want to absolutely make sure you see what you are supposed to see. When they put a switch or pickup they absolutely want to make sure you see it. I hope I explained myself properly.

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