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Xerge

Why is it so difficult to make a new Doom game?

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It's something I've been asking myself since Doom 3, why is it so difficult to make a new Doom game? I mean there always seem to be some serious flaws here and there. I really don't understand, why is it so difficult?

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Because everyone has their own idea and their own vision of how a modern Doom game should be. You have some people who think that it should be modernized and be brought into the modern era while others think that if even iron sights were implemented, it would ruin the whole game. Just look at the lack of consensus on this forum. Even with all the efforts Id has made to make Doom 4 more like the classics, there is still a large group of "fans" who think that the game is still not fast enough or not colorful enough or that the monsters are still not close enough to the originals or that there is not enough heavy metal. If these fans had their way, Doom 4 would look like a souped up version of JDoom.

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doom_is_great said:

Because everyone has their own idea and their own vision of how a modern Doom game should be. You have some people who think that it should be modernized and be brought into the modern era while others think that if even iron sights were implemented, it would ruin the whole game. Just look at the lack of consensus on this forum. Even with all the efforts Id has made to make Doom 4 more like the classics, there is still a large group of "fans" who think that the game is still not fast enough or not colorful enough or that the monsters are still not close enough to the originals or that there is not enough heavy metal. If these fans had their way, Doom 4 would look like a souped up version of JDoom.


And when more color is added, they claim it's too cartoony. Y'know, cause the original Doom or even Doom cover weren't cartoony or anything.

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because people have no fucking idea of what they even want in the first place

the concept of 'fast shootman in space killing demons' is so damned simple yet simultaneously open for a milennia of different interpretations its not even goddamn funny, moreso when the genre it belongs in keeps on constant evolution in one regard or another

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DooM_RO said:

What's wrong with the new one?


haha well If you ask me; the worst mistakes they have made is adding the pinyata effect and that cyberdemon, other than that they seem to be heading in the right direction.

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Xerge said:

haha well If you ask me; the worst mistakes they have made is adding the pinyata effect and that cyberdemon, other than that they seem to be heading in the right direction.


"Other than that" so you admit that the game only has two "major" problems? I think you are exaggerating

The argument against the "pinyata" is reductive. It can work if it is balanced well but even if it doesn't, it's not enough to say the game is heading in the wrong direction.

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DooM_RO said:

"Other than that" so you admit that the game only has two "major" problems? I think you are exaggerating

The argument against the "pinyata" is reductive. It can work if it is balanced well but even if it doesn't, it's not enough to say the game is heading in the wrong direction.


It's really hard to tell what the overall quality of the game is, we have to wait and see, so I'm not saying the whole game is heading in the wrong direction.

It's about the different aspects of the game: enemies, weapons, textures, level design, sound effects, etc, in some aspects they might be headed in the right direction while making mistakes in other aspects of the game.

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When I was a kid, I figured that in the future, DOOM wouldn't have levels. It would be an entire base all loaded on the machine and people would play together on the internet, however everyone would spend the majority of the game in isolation from each other, trying to regroup would be the main goal and players would help activate things to help players navigate their individual sections, failing that, players would have to travel longer and more difficult routes.

I didn't think about gameplay because that can evolve and change, the setting and themes of isolation and trying to manage your ammo and fighting hordes of enemies was the point.

I think D00M 2016 looks great, but it's nothing compared to what my mind thought games 20 years in the future would be like, and in that regard it is disappointing.

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Because they are fighting against 22 years of preconceptions of what "Doom" should be. And everyone has a different idea on that.

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Xerge said:

haha well If you ask me; the worst mistakes they have made is adding the pinyata effect and that cyberdemon, other than that they seem to be heading in the right direction.


So this thread really isn't about anything.

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Because no matter what they do, people will never be happy. They can keep turning up the saturation on colors, changing palettes, removing dark and ambient lighting, upping the speed, and everything, but people will always find something to bitch about.
And honestly, I feel a bit bad for id, since they seem to listen to their fans a lot.
I really don't want them to start changing the game too much to make it what the fans "want", because the fans have absolutely no fucking clue what they actually do want in the first place.

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the pinyata thing is probably the most annoying thing for me - sure it makes the game faster somehow, but that mechanism doesn't feel right for me

and yea some demons look too cartoonish - on the one side you have great looking demons like the lost soul and then you have a pinky or cacodemonthat looks like it came straight from the looney toons (I love looney toons, but they don't fit into doom)

and the old demons from doom 1/2 don't look cartoonish at all - maybe some of them don't look super scary due to the lack of possibilities back then

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People also forget that this new Doom isn't supposed to be just the old Doom's with with 2016's technology and graphics. They said from the beginning that they were taking the old Doom's and re-imagining them with a modern twist. So the people bitching about the Cyberdemon, Mancubus and Cacodemon not looking exactly like the old Demons should stop with the crying. I'm looking forward to a modern, re-imagined take on the old Dooms. Its looking pretty damn good so far, don't buy it if you don't like it.

Unreal Engine 4 is free for you to go remake the first Doom's how you'd like them, have a blast.

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Soooo many complaints. Enemies drop ammo. .The cyberdemon's horns are all fucked up. .the game is too yellow. .the demons don't look like the original ones. .the monsters look too close to the originals. .Jesus! This game could have been a COD clone with demons you know. The only thing that bothers me is the compass. And even if you can't disable it in the options menu that won't ruin the game for me.

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DoomGuys_Rabbit said:

People also forget that this new Doom isn't supposed to be just the old Doom's with with 2016's technology and graphics. They said from the beginning that they were taking the old Doom's and re-imagining them with a modern twist. So the people bitching about the Cyberdemon, Mancubus and Cacodemon not looking exactly like the old Demons should stop with the crying. I'm looking forward to a modern, re-imagined take on the old Dooms. Its looking pretty damn good so far, don't buy it if you don't like it.

Unreal Engine 4 is free for you to go remake the first Doom's how you'd like them, have a blast.


This! ^ Well said my friend!

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DoomGuys_Rabbit said:

People also forget that this new Doom isn't supposed to be just the old Doom's with with 2016's technology and graphics. They said from the beginning that they were taking the old Doom's and re-imagining them with a modern twist. So the people bitching about the Cyberdemon, Mancubus and Cacodemon not looking exactly like the old Demons should stop with the crying. I'm looking forward to a modern, re-imagined take on the old Dooms. Its looking pretty damn good so far, don't buy it if you don't like it.

Unreal Engine 4 is free for you to go remake the first Doom's how you'd like them, have a blast.


Game design isn't just about and should never be just about "looking good", it's about achieving a goal and using the available resources to achieve that goal, even if the demons or weapons looked good but didn't achieve what they want to achieve then the game designers have failed in achieving that goal which would make the game a failure in that terms.

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That works in reverse, too. The strongest gun ever will feel like trash if it doesn't look/sound like the strongest gun ever.

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I really feel bad for id, as there will NEVER be a perfect conception of modern Doom. The image of what the game is has been either deteriorated or evolved, to the point where no one knows what exactly the game is, outside their own perception.

This is one of the bad things about being "legendary" (the classics). This actually reminds me a lot of the Force awakens situation.

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Xerge said:

Game design isn't just about and should never be just about "looking good", it's about achieving a goal and using the available resources to achieve that goal, even if the demons or weapons looked good but didn't achieve what they want to achieve then the game designers have failed in achieving that goal which would make the game a failure in that terms.


What's this got to do with what I said?...

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DoomGuys_Rabbit said:

What's this got to do with what I said?...


Apparently nothing at all, you weren't talking about game design then, you either think Doom is not a game or that game designers should just design a game blindly without any clear objectives other than "look good" and "modern".

For example: "hey look at this new cyberdemon/mancubus I made, it looks good and modern, although it doesn't capture or really express it's personality, but who cares? It looks good and modern, and that's all Doom and game design is about".

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Part of the problem is that id's design philosophy--build a tight game around a powerful engine--fizzled out around the time Doom 3 was released. It had an incredible engine, but it held back gameplay in certain regards. Plus D3 has a lot of mechanical issues and is sometimes a bit uninspired. They had to ultimately abandon this philosophy in favor of creating a really good engine--not necessarily something that blows everything out of the water--and design a game around it that brings a lot to that table.

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doom_is_great said:

Because everyone has their own idea and their own vision of how a modern Doom game should be. You have some people who think that it should be modernized and be brought into the modern era while others think that if even iron sights were implemented, it would ruin the whole game. Just look at the lack of consensus on this forum. Even with all the efforts Id has made to make Doom 4 more like the classics, there is still a large group of "fans" who think that the game is still not fast enough or not colorful enough or that the monsters are still not close enough to the originals or that there is not enough heavy metal. If these fans had their way, Doom 4 would look like a souped up version of JDoom.

What I got from that is if Doomworld created the new Doom we'd get Quake. :P

EDIT: Which mean Linguica goes off to create Daikatana?

EDIT 2: I've got no apprehensions about the game. Looks solid to me, glad they scrapped their original intent. I also though RAGE was excellent and highly underrated. OTOH I've only completed Doom 3 and RoE one apiece.

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GoatLord said:

Part of the problem is that id's design philosophy--build a tight game around a powerful engine--fizzled out around the time Doom 3 was released. It had an incredible engine, but it held back gameplay in certain regards. Plus D3 has a lot of mechanical issues and is sometimes a bit uninspired. They had to ultimately abandon this philosophy in favor of creating a really good engine--not necessarily something that blows everything out of the water--and design a game around it that brings a lot to that table.


They could've made a good Doom game if they wanted to, it's just that they had different objectives, they wanted to make a half-life clone because that's what seemed to be appealing during that time.

I always thought that Doom 3 was going to be kinda like Doom 64, a darker version of Doom with old school gameplay and non-linear level design and I'm sure that would've been a much better result and that it would've recieved a better reception from the Doom community. It just worries me that ID can't figure this out.

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That seems a bit cynical. Or maybe too specific. Shooters were going in a particular direction at the time and id hopped on the same bandwagon. I don't know if you can really narrow it down to one game.

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GoatLord said:

That seems a bit cynical. Or maybe too specific. Shooters were going in a particular direction at the time and id hopped on the same bandwagon. I don't know if you can really narrow it down to one game.


Maybe, but I think the fact that the first level is just like the first levels of Half-Life is too obvious; you walking around a facility filled with scientists and security guards before everything goes to hell.

Also, remember Xen? Hell seems to have pretty much the same concept.

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Xerge said:

"hey look at this new cyberdemon/mancubus I made"


sorta unrelated but I find it amusing that most people oftentimes solely refer to the designs of the cyberdemon and mancubus in particular out of the whole cast of monsters when talking about how generic and uninspired they look as if implying the rest look the same when they really, really dont

EDIT
derp

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If you ask me, the rest of the demons do not look the same as the original, but that's not even a problem, because they are closer to an accurate representation of their personality than the new cyberdemon and the mancubus, let's just hope their behaviour in-game can compensate their looks.

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