Fast Monsters

I was just wondering how many DooMers play with fast monsters (that's using source ports, as doom.exe's -fast parameter is a bit buggy).

I ask this because some wads I've played (notably class_ep and 2002ado) are a bit too difficult with fast monsters (as the health balance is for normal play) whereas my DooM 2 wads (op-lite2, fragport) were balanced with fast monsters in mind, and some people have mentioned that I overestimated the difficulty in the text files.

Also, I've just playtested the first level in my new Zdoom episode, starting with normal monsters and found it way too easy. Then (part way through it) I switched to fast monsters and found it much harder (and enjoyed it more as well) but also ran the health right down in the process.

I'd be interested to know how many of you use fast monsters, as I'm trying to decide whether to balance the health for normal monsters or fast monsters. (as balancing it for one setting upsets the balance for the other setting)

I use fast monsters cause it's fun. and Imps CAN be a threat if they aren;t close that way ;).

Ultimate DooMer said:
I was just wondering how many DooMers play with fast monsters (that's using source ports, as doom.exe's -fast parameter is a bit buggy).

So it is in some of the ports too, e.g. MBF (mbf-bugs.html - see section on fast and respawn parameters not correctly reloaded)

I ask this because some wads I've played (notably class_ep and 2002ado) are a bit too difficult with fast monsters (as the health balance is for normal play) whereas my DooM 2 wads (op-lite2, fragport) were balanced with fast monsters in mind, and some people have mentioned that I overestimated the difficulty in the text files.
[...]
I'd be interested to know how many of you use fast monsters, as I'm trying to decide whether to balance the health for normal monsters or fast monsters.

The simple answer is that either is fine, provided you clearly say which the WAD is meant to be played with in the text file.

Personally, I play with -fast for old WADs or levels that I'm very familiar with. Doom gods and cheaters aside, -fast is usually unplayable on any level that the player doesn't know well - basically you can't afford to hesitate, so you need to know the tactic to use in advance, unless you're prepared to be reloading a lot.

That means that it is probably harder to design for too, because as the author of a level you always know the level and will usually know what tactic the player should adopt, so it's harder to judge a new player's reaction.

Eh, firstly, I do not find any bugs in savegames a problem, since to me playing with savegames is not playing at all. It is just idly checking maps or sightseeing with a little fun.

In respect to difficulty and -fast, using yourself as a basis of how challenging your map is is often not a good idea. First think about the kind of player you would want to please with the UV setting. You can always make sure lesser difficulties are supported in case less experienced players want to try out the maps, in case you plan to made your map challenging (Actually, not supporting difficulty settings ir rather lame, we must agree.) It's good to compare with the IWADs when designing. Plutonia is an example of a challenging WAD, although nothing extreme. DOOM II is the standard, more or less. Get at least one skilled player to beta test if you really want to make it challenging. Also, watching demos of players in action, either these beta testers on your maps or watching in general to get a better idea of what other people can do, helps a lot.

I think one should concentrate mostly on the normal settings when testing; other playmodes are usually possible if this one is well thought out, though often require a bit more luck. If UV is too easy for you, it is too easy, unless you're some kind of doomgod (doubtful since you use a lot of savegames, unless this is just because you have a short attention span, of course.)

cph said:

So it is in some of the ports too, e.g. MBF (mbf-bugs.html - see section on fast and respawn parameters not correctly reloaded)

This can be a problem if you wish to reload the savegame through the menu or with F3, but one may use: doom2 -loadgame loadgame# -fast, which will work correctly. That is, as long as the game was effectively started with the -fast parameter in the first place, all is fine.

I have recently started playing with fast monsters (following your suggestion), and UV -fast is now my default difficulty setting. It took some getting used to, but I don't find it that much of a leap from normal UV on most maps. It needs a different approach and a bit more planning. I've found that the biggest single difference is with demons/spectres; any encounter with them needs careful planning.
I'm most of the way through the excellent DSV4, and suspect that it wasn't designed with -fast in mind, since some of the traps are barely survivable (for a non-Doomgod) without some luck or foresight, and this makes the difficulty level fairly uneven (for the most part it is quite manageable). The first wad I played -fast that I hadn't previously played normally was Death Tormention II, and it was one of the most thrilling Doom experiences I have ever had. (I'll never forget the yellow key trap on E4M6.)
Having got used to -fast, normal UV now seems unbelievably slow. I suppose you just get used to the speed.

I found 2002 ADO to be pretty much perfectly balanced when played -fast as episodes (rather than a pistol start for each map).

Regarding the problem of simultaneously balancing gameplay for both UV and UV -fast, are there perhaps some advantages the player has with fast monsters? Some thoughts:
1) Monster in-fights start quicker. You may only need to run through an area once to get a really big in-fight started.
2) AV jumps (and multiple AV jumps) are easier. The player may be able to escape from a tight spot, or grab some power-ups, with an AV jump (whereas on normal UV the AVs wouldn't attack fast enough). An example: Cameron Prosser's NM run of HR map 30; there is also a possible instance in Map 28 of Doom2 (the player doesn't have to wait for a platform to rise).
3) Monsters that would block the player's escape from an area in UV might have had time to disperse in UV -fast.
4) A bunch of monsters could be trapped fighting one another behind a 30-second door.

Yes, you should definitely state in the textfile that the wad is designed for -fast. Probably some players are intimidated by -fast, or worried that they'll get to some part of a map that isn't survivable (quite possible if it hasn't been tested, of course). BTW, I had no complaint about the difficulty level in Fragport, but just thought that the claim "it'll be the 2nd hardest DooM 2 episode you will ever play - cos nothing beats the Plutonia Experiment!" seemed odd. It certainly wasn't harder than Hell Revealed! (I don't think Fragport on UV -fast is as hard as HR on UV either, but I'll need to try HR again.)

I'd certainly like to see more wads designed (or at least playtested) for -fast. This was one of the nice things about Alien Vendetta - in the textfile Anders Johnsen mentions that he toned down map 07 because he knew that "some Hungarian" would insist on playing it -fast.
It might also be nice to see some maps (besides supar1337.wad!) designed to be played on Nightmare.

Grazza said:(...)I don't find it that much of a leap from normal UV on most maps. It needs a different approach and a bit more planning. I've found that the biggest single difference is with demons/spectres; any encounter with them needs careful planning.
Having got used to -fast, normal UV now seems unbelievably slow. I suppose you just get used to the speed.

In -fast mode the player must usually stay clear of monsters (in relation to normal I mean). You have to kill imps from farther off and it's much harder to punch them (albeit their attacking mania makes them easier to hit if you can dodge them, making then easier to punch, but only if they are alone). Heavy Weapon Dudes are also pretty nasty in -fast, particularly in numbers.

Regarding the problem of simultaneously balancing gameplay for both UV and UV -fast, are there perhaps some advantages the player has with fast monsters? Some thoughts:
1) Monster in-fights start quicker. You may only need to run through an area once to get a really big in-fight started.
2) AV jumps (and multiple AV jumps) are easier. The player may be able to escape from a tight spot, or grab some power-ups, with an AV jump (whereas on normal UV the AVs wouldn't attack fast enough). An example: Cameron Prosser's NM run of HR map 30; there is also a possible instance in Map 28 of Doom2 (the player doesn't have to wait for a platform to rise).
3) Monsters that would block the player's escape from an area in UV might have had time to disperse in UV -fast.
4) A bunch of monsters could be trapped fighting one another behind a 30-second door.

Yes, maps on -fast can sometimes be completed faster than on normal speed, but not always, as the speed of monsters often makes up for these advantages, as the player must be more cautious. It's more like they can be faster to play, but usually more lethal.

Yes, you should definitely state in the textfile that the wad is designed for -fast. Probably some players are intimidated by -fast, or worried that they'll get to some part of a map that isn't survivable (quite possible if it hasn't been tested, of course.)

Albeit the only changes would be that it would be generally easier than a WAD not designed for -fast. It would mean, for example, that monsters would rarely ambush players from close up, or there would be a few monsters less. Speaking relatively in relation to a supposedly "normal speed" WAD. Waht I mean is that all this is relative, since it depends on the designer's judgement of difficulty.

I'd certainly like to see more wads designed (or at least playtested) for -fast. This was one of the nice things about Alien Vendetta - in the textfile Anders Johnsen mentions that he toned down map 07 because he knew that "some Hungarian" would insist on playing it -fast.
It might also be nice to see some maps (besides supar1337.wad!) designed to be played on Nightmare.

That WAD was designed with -fast in mind because all the standard Compet-N modes of play were considered. The idea is that if you push up UV too far -fast or NM become highly luck-based in regards to survival, which makes recording, particularly long movies, very painful.

Also, players that like -fast but find UV -fast too tough can use something like HMP or NTR with -fast and they may be happy (it may end up being as hard as UV but different). One can also add both -fast and -respawn to lesser difficulty settings, which makes play similar to NM but not as dangerous.

You make a lot of good points, but I don't want to hijack Ultimate DooMer's thread by responding in great detail. One major factor in UV -fast is understanding monster behaviour. For example, surviving the yellow key trap I mentioned above with fists alone involved causing a hoard of demons to backtrack by timing a run straight at them just right - I would never have thought of that if I hadn't been fiddling around with some ludicrous attempts to do E3M5 of 2002 ADO pacifist. Also revenant fighting: it is sometimes best to get very close to them so that they try to punch you (you make sure they miss, of course) rather than using their rockets. I picked this up from watching compet-n and TAS demos.

The gist of my suggestions was not just (or necessarily) that maps could be completed faster, but that in some respects the gameplay could be made easier on UV -fast by rigging it in certain ways - and this could compensate, to some extent, for the increased difficulty in other respects.

myk said:

Also, players that like -fast but find UV -fast too tough can use something like HMP or NTR with -fast and they may be happy (it may end up being as hard as UV but different). One can also add both -fast and -respawn to lesser difficulty settings, which makes play similar to NM but not as dangerous.

Funny, I had this same thought recently: Nightmare Lite: -skill 2/3 -fast -respawn. Fewer monsters, but also less ammo (since skill 5 gives you double ammo). Still, it's pot luck how the gameplay turns out, unless the maps were created with this in mind. For the insane there is also Super Nightmare (-skill 4 -fast -respawn; like NM but with half the ammo).

What I really like to see in a map is superbly well-balanced gameplay: you're down to 5% health, hardly any ammo, but all you need to survive the next encounter are a few health vials and a few shells. And what has the author provided...? Ah!

When I did the Doom2 GrandMaster Title from the DHT5 standards (Doom Honorific Titles) the requirement at the time was this...

Must set the -fast parameter for fast monsters.

100% Kills

100% Items

100% Secrets

What does the -fast parameter do, in a nutshell..

It is used to make the monsters react like they do in nightmare mode. They will shoot at you and move up to three times faster than normal. They do not respawn however!

Also for the "exam" you were given three assigned levels. Then you chose a level of your choice still using the -fast parameter. Then you did one level on any skill level with or without the -fast parameter. A total of five levels were part of the exam. The catch was of course, you are not allowed to die at any time. The LMP's had to show you remaining alive throughout the entire LMP! Death was not an option!

I am of course happy to say that I obtained the Doom2 GrandMaster Title. Many others have as well, it was all in good fun.


Cadman - Member TeamTNT

Grazza said:

BTW, I had no complaint about the difficulty level in Fragport, but just thought that the claim "it'll be the 2nd hardest DooM 2 episode you will ever play - cos nothing beats the Plutonia Experiment!" seemed odd. It certainly wasn't harder than Hell Revealed! (I don't think Fragport on UV -fast is as hard as HR on UV either, but I'll need to try HR again.)

The reason I put that was because it was the 2nd hardest wad I had played, after Plutonia (as I haven't played HR yet)

myk said:

It's good to compare with the IWADs when designing. Plutonia is an example of a challenging WAD, although nothing extreme. DOOM II is the standard, more or less.

I actually use Plutonia as a gameplay standard for my DooM 2 maps (in fact Fragport's gameplay was heavily inspired by Plutonia), but I'm now making a DooM 1 episode, so I'll have to compare with something else. (probably 1kill or 2002ado, cos they have class gameplay)


Grazza: There are other differences, too. Demons bite you much quicker, making chainsaw combat less favourable (berserk tends to replace it), but also it's easier to get creatures like barons and cybers to stand still, making them easier targets. (and it really helps against archviles, as they don't get any closer to where you're hiding, and they don't resurrect anyone cos they're too busy shooting at you)

Has anyone ever beaten Plutonia on Nightmare?

I've beaten it on -fast, starting every level with a pistol and 50 bulets, but not nightmare though.

Woolie Wool said:

Has anyone ever beaten Plutonia on Nightmare?

By 'beaten' do you mean with savegame, which is not really beating it?

I like playing with fast monsters on if I want to kill a few hours trying to beat the first level on UV.

Woolie Wool said:

Has anyone ever beaten Plutonia on Nightmare?

There is a TAS NM run by Istvan Pataki, but no unassisted 30NM run. Each level has been beaten individually on NM from a pistol start - check out the compet-N site for details. Some of them have only been done recently, and involve some amazing tricks - it is most unlikely anyone could pull them off in a movie run.

I'd say these are all must-see demos.

Links:
http://www.doomworld.com/tas/
http://competn.tsx.org/

Ultimate DooMer said:

Grazza: There are other differences, too. Demons bite you much quicker, making chainsaw combat less favourable (berserk tends to replace it), but also it's easier to get creatures like barons and cybers to stand still, making them easier targets. (and it really helps against archviles, as they don't get any closer to where you're hiding, and they don't resurrect anyone cos they're too busy shooting at you)

I'd certainly noticed that fast demons were different in several respects, and hardly ever try to use the chainsaw on them. This makes a big difference, for instance in one of the last rooms of 2002 ADO E2M5 (making the secret exit very attractive). Thanks for mentioning the other differences - I suspected some of them, but wasn't sure if I was just imagining them.

Ultimate DooMer said:

I haven't played HR yet

OMG! Stop whatever you're doing, download it, and play it now! It will change your life!
Seriously, I suspect you'll love it, from what you've said about your DooMing style and skills. It should also give you some great ideas for your own maps. Three comments:
1) Play it on UV (or even HMP), not UV -fast. (Check out some of the -fast TAS demos to see why.)
2) Abandon any ideas of methodically clearing one area before moving onto the next.
3) The first six maps are relatively normal - then all hell breaks loose.

Grazza said:

OMG! Stop whatever you're doing, download it, and play it now! It will change your life!

He's absolutely right, if you haven't played it don't even consider playing anything else before it.Plutonia's great but Hell Revealed is different class.Start now damnit!

Hey Grazza, ever record anything? :)
sounds like your someone who plays a lot.
see ya, Opulent -- opulent@cox.net

Opulent said:

Hey Grazza, ever record anything? :)
sounds like your someone who plays a lot.

Hi Opulent! You've probably gathered that I have watched a hell of a lot of demos from your SDA and SDA/TAS pages. I have never recorded any demos; if I did, I would probably prefer the purity of a TAS demo (I'm the scientific type), but might be able to manage some interesting non-assisted stuff, who knows? There's obvious table-filling scope with DT2, after all.

Actually, I'm not convinced I'm fast or skilled enough to produce anything worth making public. I once tried to see if I could beat the UV max time for STRAIN map 17 (Promenade), but couldn't even get it below 25 minutes.

I always play using a source port; I understand that doom2.exe is the preferred executable for demos. I've never found a configuration I'm happy with in doom2.exe (the last time I used doom2.exe was back in 1997, when I was still a never-strafing keyboarder). Besides, 320x200 resolution looks a bit sick to me nowadays (I normally use 1600x1200). If you're interested in jDoom, Zdoom or Legacy demos, then I'll consider recording next time I think I can do something special on some map. I'd be really happy if it were possible to set these ports for 100% doom2.exe compatibility (esp. rocket aiming), but that doesn't seem likely.

BTW, I understand that Ultimate DooMer is a hell of a good player; maybe he can offer you something... HN11 maybe? (tee hee)

There's quite a few of us using Legacy for demos at SDA.

magikal said:

There's quite a few of us using Legacy for demos at SDA.

That's nice to hear - I rather like the latest beta (I wasn't too keen on previous versions).

I haven't dropped by at SDA for a while (I've been getting most of my demo "fixes" at compet-N in recent months), and the acceptance of Legacy demos hadn't really registered with me.

Grazza said:

That's nice to hear - I rather like the latest beta (I wasn't too keen on previous versions).

I haven't dropped by at SDA for a while (I've been getting most of my demo "fixes" at compet-N in recent months), and the acceptance of Legacy demos hadn't really registered with me.

Yep the latest beta is good, easy to use, looks good and plays well.The SDA certainly isn't as strict as Compet-N where, obviously, things have to be equal and fair for the 'competition'.

Grazza said:

I always play using a source port; I understand that doom2.exe is the preferred executable for demos. I've never found a configuration I'm happy with in doom2.exe (the last time I used doom2.exe was back in 1997, when I was still a never-strafing keyboarder). Besides, 320x200 resolution looks a bit sick to me nowadays (I normally use 1600x1200). If you're interested in jDoom, Zdoom or Legacy demos, then I'll consider recording next time I think I can do something special on some map. I'd be really happy if it were possible to set these ports for 100% doom2.exe compatibility (esp. rocket aiming), but that doesn't seem likely.

BTW, I understand that Ultimate DooMer is a hell of a good player; maybe he can offer you something... HN11 maybe? (tee hee)

You may know this already (but your post doesn't make it clear, if so): Prboom allows hi res (and a gl version to ease very high res setups), has expanded setups for keys, plays like the original, and can be set to record a demo that is 99% likely to be doom or doom2 compatible. The main purpose of this port is to port doom and boom over to todays OSs (I'm being redundant, yeah, but many of todays "ports" are more like generic engine mods). The other advantage it has is that it records in many versions (doom and various boom versions). A lot of attention has been put into its demo recording and compatibility faculties.

myk said:

You may know this already (but your post doesn't make it clear, if so): Prboom allows hi res (and a gl version to ease very high res setups), has expanded setups for keys, plays like the original, and can be set to record a demo that is 99% likely to be doom or doom2 compatible.

I have tried PrBoom, and am aware of its excellent compatibility - in any case I have had to use it to watch doom2.exe demos ever since getting a new computer a few months ago (it runs Windows XP; OK, as I mentioned in another post, doom2.exe will run at a consistent speed, but with nothing better than PC speaker for sound FX).

I wasn't able to get a PrBoom set-up I was happy with though (admittedly I didn't spend too much time on it). Presumably I'd have to edit the .cfg file (not something I've ever done before). The essentials of my set-up are: arrow keys for forward/backward/strafe left/strafe right; mouse (left/right) for turning; MB1 for fire; MB3 single click (NOT double click) for Use. Mouse forward/backward is MLook or else no effect (NOT move forward/backward). Autorun on, of course.
I like this set-up because it is pretty much the same as the set-up I use for other games (Unreal, UT, HL, Q, Q2 - no sniggering, please!). MB2 is jump, for games where jumping is involved. I am used to playing with autoaim off, and a cross-hair, but appreciate that these are not features of 'pure' doom.
Obviously I should also give some thought to how to get SR50, but that's something I have never bothered with (pathetic, I know!). [joke]Anyone got a hacked mouse driver?[/joke]

Grazza said:
I have tried PrBoom, and am aware of its excellent compatibility - in any case I have had to use it to watch doom2.exe demos ever since getting a new computer a few months ago (it runs Windows XP; OK, as I mentioned in another post, doom2.exe will run at a consistent speed, but with nothing better than PC speaker for sound FX).

Yeah, I use it for that too, particularly when I play back movies or when I'm using the computer that doesnt have a true sound blaster.

Grazza said:
I wasn't able to get a PrBoom set-up I was happy with though (admittedly I didn't spend too much time on it). Presumably I'd have to edit the .cfg file (not something I've ever done before). The essentials of my set-up are: arrow keys for forward/backward/strafe left/strafe right; mouse (left/right) for turning; MB1 for fire; MB3 single click (NOT double click) for Use. Mouse forward/backward is MLook or else no effect (NOT move forward/backward). Autorun on, of course.

You'll be able to get that setup, and you'll see it's much easier to configure than you thought; simply use the menu and go to "options" then "setup" and finally "key bindings."

Grazza said:
Obviously I should also give some thought to how to get SR50, but that's something I have never bothered with (pathetic, I know!). [joke]Anyone got a hacked mouse driver?[/joke]

It's useful for some things, but not all good players use it.

When I record demos, it's always with ZDoom.

DooMBoy said:

When I record demos, it's always with ZDoom.

Which version is reliable for recording...and do recordings playback with other versions?I've had nothing but trouble and frustration with ZDoom and lmps...otherwise it's really good.

myk said:

You'll be able to get that setup, and you'll see it's much easier to configure than you thought; simply use the menu and go to "options" then "setup" and finally "key bindings."

Yes, but two things I mentioned just wouldn't work:
1) I need mouse movement backwards/forwards to have no effect. Oddly, trying it again, I see that this is now OK. Maybe I was remembering it wrong, or else some change in my system has caused PrBoom's default behaviour to change. Perhaps it's because I've taken the joystick off my computer.
2) I need to set "Use" as MB3 single click (not double click). It doesn't seem to want to let me change this. OK, I have the double-click set to a very short time delay, and I can generally get a double click by thumping on the button so that it bounces, but this isn't an ideal solution if you need to get a door open in a real hurry while doing other manoeuvres. And yes, if I grew another arm I could use the space bar...

Hi Grazza.
Shame you never record. (but understandable)
Remember that the DSDA accepts almost any DOOM demo on a pwad (or very high quality deathmatch demos). the biggest restriction is that it must playback correctly with the engine it was recorded with. Zdoom, Legacy, Jdoom, doesn't matter... any is fine.
so just remember that if you ever decide to record something. :)
Mag: Zdoom demos are very specific to each build.
but they do have good demo support for each release.