I think what will ultimately decide the longevity of this game

lies in its modding capabilities. Snap Map and whatever else ID/Bethesday may or may not allow access to. Campaign and Multiplayer are obviously very important but I also think the one thing that would keep the community coming back to it over and over again the same way they do Classic Doom ultimately rests on the creative power and ease of use of their tools and access in general. I'm pretty sure that's a large chunk of the reason Classic Doom is even relevant anymore, because anyone can hop in and not only make maps but tweak the game in such a way that they're essentially making their own games. It would be great to see some flexibility in that department, even if it means having some PC exclusive things that aren't so streamlined and have to be externally modded.

If they do not release idStudio for the advanced users, there will be eventually a hard limit in number of SnapMap combinations will be reached. Prefabs can't completely hold off customization and new maps.

People are sooo concerned with how long DOOM4 will last. If the game lasts for a playthrough or two, so what? Does that somehow prevent it from being a memorable experience? It will not 'last' for years anyway so quit dreaming.

I'm really looking forward to all the amazing things the community can come up with, there are some really good wads out there I can imagine people creating amazing maps for this game too.

Ideally I would like Doom to be a game I completely binge at the start. Finish the campaign on medium difficulty, play bunch of multiplayer, complete campaign on hard difficulty, make some Snapmap levels, play more multiplayer and take a break for 6 months. Come back and find new and innovating Snapmap creations that impresses me with some new content from id software.

This is what I really hope for Doom and its longevity. Games like Fallout and Skyrim, if you return even years later there are major projects and content constantly developed that can change the feeling of the game completely. I would like Doom to be the same. That being said, the concept of Snapmap does seem too limiting to achieve that.

It can be like Wolfenstein: The New Order, which doesn't have replayability at all, but it's amazing the first time you play it.

You don't need to play every game for 23 years straight, you know.

True, but with the multiplayer and the user-made Snapmap creations, I imagine this game will have some replayability.

Glaice said:

If they do not release idStudio for the advanced users, there will be eventually a hard limit in number of SnapMap combinations will be reached. Prefabs can't completely hold off customization and new maps.

I say this is the likely outcome, assuming that the updates to snapmap aren't big enough to alleviate it some. Even then long term idStudio would be the best bet.

I'm confident that at somepoint they will release idstudio, but I hope it doesn't take as long as DoomEd. :P

It's already been confirmed ages ago that there will be no mod support outside of snapmap: http://www.pcgamer.com/doom-will-not-get-mod-support-in-addition-to-snapmap/

”Everything that we’re doing on the mod side will be through SnapMap,” Hines said when asked about modding tools in addition to SnapMap."

I know many peoples first reaction is to scream in outrage but honestly I really don't give a shit. Doom 3 had a level editor and yet only a very few handful good maps got made. I myself made 3 maps with it but they weren't super good and they took me months to make (granted that I wasn't working on them hours per day). Hell, some of the biggest Doom 3 projects STILL AREN'T DONE. The fact of the matter is that casual level editing isn't possible to do with modern 3D shooters. It's just too much work. So even if mod support did exist for the new Doom I don't think I would ever use it. Snapmap is a much better solution for those interested in making levels without having to invest huge amounts of time, trial and error into doing so.

So are they going to go out of their way to specifically prevent people from using mods? If so, that sounds like a problem exclusive to whoever's in charge of ID these days since Bethesda has never had a problem with people modding their games.

MetroidJunkie said:

So are they going to go out of their way to specifically prevent people from using mods?

Not going out of your way to support something does not mean you'll prevent it from happening.

id and Bethedsa do know what they're dealing with in regards to that. Even if they aren't confident a pure level editor will really get used much, I doubt they'd raise more than a single eyebrow if someone managed to hack together one the day after the game's released.

In other words, the modding community can just as easily fill in the slack. At the very least, I imagine a mod that breaks SnapMap's limiters would be made relatively quickly, if at the cost of being able to share your maps with Ps4/One users.

MetroidJunkie said:

In other words, the modding community can just as easily fill in the slack. At the very least, I imagine a mod that breaks SnapMap's limiters would be made relatively quickly, if at the cost of being able to share your maps with Ps4/One users.

That's fine, don't see why allowing pc only snapmap maps would be a bad thing.

We don't even know how much snapmap will limit map size yet. For all we know it will give us plenty of space.

And since I intend to also own this game on the PS4 (because why not, it's fucking Doom) it would be super cool knowing that I have cross-platform support for my levels. I know mouse and keyboard controls are 10x better but sometimes I just want to relax and I can do that so much better on my couch than on my PC chair.

Considering I'd bet the only reason there's a limit on how much stuff you can put in a map is so that the console versions can receive those maps without lagging/crashing.

hardcore_gamer said:

sometimes I just want to relax and I can do that so much better on my couch than on my PC chair.

There are ways to do that with PC games, even with a controller.

LittleBurger said:

That's fine, don't see why allowing pc only snapmap maps would be a bad thing.

It segregates the community. It's a huge plus that every DOOM player knows they can play every single SnapMap creation in existence. Not to mention there virtually won't be any downloading or setup required. So we'll all have instant access to everything.

It really is a pretty groundbreaking feature.

And like I said, we don't even know if the size limitations are even going to be a problem anyway. Does anyone really enjoy those huge hour long Doom levels anyway? I want mine to be short and sweet, somewhere in the 5-15 min range. I don't want to play the same level for an hour.

hardcore_gamer said:

It's already been confirmed ages ago that there will be no mod support outside of snapmap: http://www.pcgamer.com/doom-will-not-get-mod-support-in-addition-to-snapmap/

Idk man
There are sources that contradict that
Like this one

Edit: well ok it doesn't actually contradict per se but more complicates things a bit

I'm sorry but people who treat idStudio as some kind of hell are dead wrong!
In fact it is pretty easy to use....the problem with rage tool kit was that they never provided proper documentation.....yes making a map in radiant is not something casual and requires quite a lot of patience and talent, but what about the actual modding of the main game....I want to have more motives to replay campiagn by using mods, not custom maps, but gameplay mods! And we won't get it with snapmap......that's the problem! The real modding of main game is not available. And those who defend Snapmap always forget this simple thing!

id.dav said:

I'm sorry but people treat idStudio as some kind of hell are wrong!In fact it is pretty easy to use....the problem with rage tool kit was that they never provided proper documentation.....yes making a map in radiant is not something casual and requires quite a lot of patience and talent, but what about the actual modding of the main game....I want to have more motives to replay campiagn by using mods, not custom maps, but gameplay mods! And we won't get it with snapmap......that's the problem! The real modding of main game is not available.

I'd take both. Unless snapmap is going to get major updates to allow for more custom geometry, I wouldn't want to be purely stuck with maps that start feeling the same on how they are setup (long term).

Id and Bethesda have been pretty quiet about additional mod utilities. We really don't know yet but it would be a HUGE blunder on their part not to give us something like IDstudio.

I understand the point where people are like "You will never use it! It is complicated! blah blah blah" but that isn't the point. Someone will use it and the community will have more cool maps to play.

I will attempt to make my own maps but only where SnapMap fails. I am thinking about mainly building out door zones for the most part.

Glaice said:

If they do not release idStudio for the advanced users, there will be eventually a hard limit in number of SnapMap combinations will be reached. Prefabs can't completely hold off customization and new maps.

You mean a soft limit. Maps will start to look very alike over time much like Diablo zones will. Their might be trillions of outcomes but it will start to feel the same.

How do fix that?

Thousands of new prefab updates, new skins, monsters, textures and Singleplayer DLC.

Being able to draw walls out by hand would help and I think it's doable, it would be similar to the extrude tool on Blender. The Original Doom prided itself on being able to physically make any kind of environments that you could draw on a sheet of 2D paper, I think the modern Doom should have the same ability.

You forget that Doom mapping is that way due to tech limits (raycaster, not true 3D). If it was true 3D I doubt it'd be that way.

i'm going to go on a limb here and say that their desire to hold any and all word on actual modding tools for the game is due to the fact that they are foremost interested in how snapmap does at launch. after that, and only if they notice the game gathering enough reception to guarantee full-flegded custom content done for it, they'll make an official public announcement and (possibly, i'm in all honesty pipe dreamin' at this point) a trailer or a 20-so minute tutorial video of an ID exec toying around with it and showcasing what can be done with it.

it genuinely surprises me how seemingly no one has yet made that connection.

TheMightyHeracross said:

You forget that Doom mapping is that way due to tech limits (raycaster, not true 3D). If it was true 3D I doubt it'd be that way.

I pointed out something that would be similar that uses true polygonal 3D, extrusion on Blender. Each wall would simply be 2 tris to fill out the rectangular shape. It's very doable, especially considering the concept of taking drawn walls and turning them into polygons is something GZDoom actually does.