User Friendly Source Port?

Voros said:

Its simple
Its elegant

Hardly. It's too much of a speedrunning and emulation tool to be a good novice port. Even considering the amount of features, its menu could use some improvement.

What I wanted is a port that allows to play Doom like an ordinary game - with an adequate menu that isn't barebones, but also doesn't flood the player with tons of options that are unnecessary or even harmful during a first playthrough. It's kind of a lost experience these days, at least when it comes to third-party exes.

MetroidJunkie said:

PrBoom certainly seems to be the most popular among Doom source ports.

[citation needed] :D

at least for getting it on other platforms.

That may be true, but it's an important limitation.

If you compare raw download numbers of the various ports (as far as available), PrBoom+ seems to be rather niche, though, unless it got some secret download location I haven't found yet.

MetroidJunkie said:

PrBoom certainly seems to be the most popular among Doom source ports

Sorry, pal, but I think your personal preference is clouding your perception.

Just as a gentle reminder, here's some download numbers for a handful of ports I could find:

GZDoom had at least 30000 downloads during the last 8 weeks, that's nearly 4000 per week, only for the most recent official version, and numbers have been extremely high for previous versions as well.
Doomsday had 1700 per week on Sourceforge and possibly a lot more on their own website which doesn't have a counter.
Even Doom Legacy has 600 on Sourceforge, although a very interesting distribution among versions, which is not really speaking well for the port...
PrBoom+, on the other hand manages a meager 300 downloads per week, plus 200+ for the ancient original PrBoom.

Sadly I wasn't able to find any statistics for ZDoom and Eternity so there's nothing to estimate their popularity.

But even so, it's clear that PrBoom is far from 'popular'. The numbers suggest it's rather niche.

I didn't mean it was the most popular period, that's why my sentence didn't end there but thanks for taking me out of context. ;)

I meant, in the homebrew community, PrBoom is by far the most widely used. GZDoom got a single non-Personal Computer platform to my knowledge and that's Android and the app it came in even included PrBoom.

Da Werecat said:

but also doesn't flood the player with tons of options that are unnecessary or even harmful during a first playthrough. It's kind of a lost experience these days, at least when it comes to third-party exes.

What would you suggest? Hide all those options?
Or who gets to decide which ones are essential for a first playthrough.
There's thousands of Doomers out there, and everyone has different tastes and different needs.

The best you can expect is a well structured menu where options are properly categorized and well described.

It should be obvious that for a first playthrough you do not touch those options you do not understand yet, but still, they need to be there for more experienced users.

And when in doubt - a good product comes with good documentation. ZDoom's menu docs are quite comprehensive, actually.

These numbers are useless. For example you are only counting downloads of prboom from sourceforge; but it's available from other channels. That wouldn't cover DS users, and it doesn't cover Debian Linux users (which have their own stats which show 193,783 installs on popcon-enabled systems). The same is probably true for other ports.

MetroidJunkie said:

I meant, in the homebrew community...

Isn't that even more niche than those more obscure Doom ports on desktop computers? :D

Jon said:

which have their own stats which show 193,783 installs

I think that page needs better documentation. The way I read it, the number of installs is 830, i.e. the two numbers in the 'Number' column under Inst. And that also matches the graph.

Which also begs the question: What does this graph show? Installs per day/week/month or accumulated installs? I can only guess but the way it develops my guess would be accumulated installs (and uninstalls), otherwise it'd be a lot more irregular.

Graf Zahl said:

What would you suggest?

To you? To entryway?

Nothing. I don't think that this particular vision is compatible with source ports that aim to please as many people as possible. It's restrictive by design, just like any unmodified game is restrictive. The whole point is to provide a definitive experience.

Da Werecat said:

The whole point is to provide a definitive experience.

That doesn't exist, and any pruduct like this will get criticized for such unneeded restrictions.

(Are you using an iPhone? That reasoning sounds totally Apple... :D)

Graf Zahl said:

I think that page needs better documentation. The way I read it, the number of installs is 830, i.e. the two numbers in the 'Number' column under Inst. And that also matches the graph.

Which also begs the question: What does this graph show? Installs per day/week/month or accumulated installs? I can only guess but the way it develops my guess would be accumulated installs (and uninstalls), otherwise it'd be a lot more irregular.

It's very unclear, yes. It's not a cumulative thing, at least not without some kind of window, or it would be much larger. I don't think popcon can reliably track uninstalls either (except by a subsequent "packages installed" submission lacking something that was in an earlier submission). Perhaps 193783 is the package rank rather than the install count. But the page is a mess!

https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=prboom is interesting, the graph indicates the impact from when we/Debian transitioned from Prboom to prboom+. There is/was still a "prboom" package, which was used to smoothly upgrade people to prboom+; but newer installs would have skipped over it and just installed prboom+ direct.


To the OP: Perhaps you should look at using a launcher. On Mac, many ports (at least Prboom+ and Chocolate Doom) have a wrapper that lets you provide some common arguments, and in Choco's case launch the setup program before starting the game proper. Not quite what you are asking for, but a bit more coordinated perhaps?

Graf Zahl said:

Isn't that even more niche than those more obscure Doom ports on desktop computers? :D

Perhaps but, unless you've got a big laptop you'd like to lug around, getting it on other systems is a handy way to play Doom on the go. Hell, you could break out a homebrew enabled 3DS and play it on an airplane or something. =3

Graf Zahl said:

That doesn't exist, and any pruduct like this will get criticized for such unneeded restrictions.

An approximation is fine.

Criticized by whom? Experienced players who want to customize everything to death? Let them play their GZDoom - they already know what they want and what's allowed where.

Graf Zahl said:

(Are you using an iPhone? That reasoning sounds totally Apple... :D)

My reasoning is that a new player would probably prefer to play the game, instead of trying to deduce whether you're supposed to jump in it or not (because reaching that ledge was surprisingly easy, and there's a redundant switch to lower it). A videogame is not an OS.

I don't understand why you're so determined to prove something to me. It's not like I'm out to get you beloved creation.

Da Werecat said:

My reasoning is that a new player would probably prefer to play the game, instead of trying to deduce whether you're supposed to jump in it or not (because reaching that ledge was surprisingly easy, and there's a redundant switch to lower it). A videogame is not an OS.

My reasoning is that the default settings should be fine for the average user - with the exception of the control setup. This is something everybody has to set to their liking, and the less options a port provides, the more criticism it will get.

Give be 100 people and you are likely to find at least 20-30 different control settings.

Turning jumping on and off isn't the same as binding keys, if that's what you meant.

Frozti said:

Well strange the read me in the breach folder that came with the install said something about multiplayer co-op... And the tilda key didn't bring up the console, maybe I need to activate it? Any way, time to try odamex.

Breach is just a doom mapset that is included with Doom Retro as a bonus, it has no real relation to the port. Doom Retro doesn't have multiplayer. You can change its options directly from the cfg file, like key bindings etc. Not sure why the tilde key doesn't activate the console, you could try setting another key for it in the cfg.

For me, prboom+ is one of the better ports but I hate not being able to change complevel from the options(right?). Also I never play with infinitely tall actors, it feels stupid and clunky when I get blocked from non-visible cacodemons from way above. And it insists on autoloading the goddamn demos while I'm checking the goddamn options, which results in frozen input until the loading finishes and then raging in the background while I'm trying to set options. And doesn't allow Enter to bring up the menu like in the original and all source ports.

@Da Werecat
You can change the controls while Doom Retro is running with the console but yeah, it's much easier to edit the cfg and rerun it.

Da Werecat said:

... and you can't even tweak the options without hacking the cfg. ... it's impossible to set controls while the game is running.

All options and controls can be changed in-game using the console.

I keep forgetting about that, but it's not exactly user-friendly.

Honestly your best bet is to try most of the main ones, including G(z)doom, zdoom, zandronum, zdaemon, odamex, prboom+, and chocolate doom and finding out which of these you prefer.

For multiplayer, odamex has a consistent playerbase of next to zero except during tournament season and then it's still pretty barren for public play too. So unless you're down for single-player dm/coop/ctf, check out Zdaemon which is a bit more reliable for players and you'll have no problem finding DM/CTF game play. It's worth downloading at least for their thursday night survival event apparently and has quite a few features that can make it exciting again I guess. Zandronum consistently has the most players but you might struggle finding DM/CTF and vanilla-style doom given that the port supports more zdoom features and thus more people host old wads with modifiers. Zandronum also has better support for multiple iwads, including the ones you mentioned as well as Hexen and Strife. I'd follow Doomkid's advice and download all 3. Setting up a lan in any of them is fairly straightforward.

Unfortunately since I don't play single player doom, I don't have gzdoom, zdoom, prboom+ or chocoloate doom, and thus can't comment on those!

This list isn't oriented on "User Friendliness", but on what's popular ATM.

Dosbox: Dos emulator with multiplayer support. Best option for recording multiplayer Boom and multiplayer MBF demos.
Crispy Doom: Limit Removing source port with demo and multiplayer support. Based off Chocolate Doom.
Odamex: C/S Multiplayer oriented port. In beta. No active development for months. Based off ZDoom 1.22/1.23. Has support for playing vanilla demos, but not to the same extent as other ports mentioned in this list.
ZDaemon: C/S Multiplayer oriented port. The only unofficial closed source port worth mentioning (all others on this list are open source, usually GPL). Fairly popular. Based off ZDoom 1.22/1.23.
(G)ZDoom: One of the most popular source ports. Extensive modding options. Zero demo compatibility.
Zandronum: C/S Multiplayer oriented port. Extensive modding options. Zero demo compatibility. Fairly popular, but mostly with mods instead of vanilla. Lastest stable build as of this writing is based off ZDoom 2.5, but will soon use a ZDoom 2.7 base.
Doomsday: Eye candy oriented limit removing port. No demo compatibility. In beta, but usable. Has multiplayer support.
PrBoom (Plus): Compatibility oriented port, capable of playing Vanilla/Limit Removing, Boom, and MBF demos, among other types. Horrible netcode.
Eternity: Advanced source port, though not to the same extent as ZDoom. Can play vanilla demos, with boom demo support on the way. Horrible netcode.
Doom Legacy: Was a good source port back in its day, but now is almost completely worthless. Avoid.
3DGE: In beta. No demo compatibility. Multiplayer is restricted to (broken) 2 player splitscreen. Worth keeping an eye on.
Remood: In alpha. Was originally forked from Doom Legacy. Now undergoing the process of being ported to Java. Also worth keeping an eye on.
Doom 3 BFG/Doom Classic: Official. Works on modern systems, a claim which Doom 95 has trouble making. Can play demos but not record apparently. No multiplayer on PC.

Am I forgetting anything?

Saying "zero demo compatibility" for some ports is somewhat misleading. You can certainly and replay demos in zdaemon and zandronum. Maybe not vanilla demos (if anybody really cares enough to watch them; that's not a great selling feature, especially in mp focused ports) but there is demo support nonetheless.

Zandronum and Zdoom 2.x can only play demos that match up with the exact version of the port iwas recorded in. For example Zandronum 2.0 demos can only be played back in Zandronum 2.0.

ZDaemon has no vanilla demo compatibility, but it has excellent demo compatibility with itself (meaning demos recorded in older versions can be played in new ones).

Danfun64 said:

3DGE: In beta. No demo compatibility. Multiplayer is restricted to (broken) 2 player splitscreen. Worth keeping an eye on.

Spot on!! :-) it is also worth noting that our SDL2 conversion is nearly complete, and interpolation has been totally patched up, and I am working on completing true netcode through SDL_Net (going to abandon HawkNL, but the netcode sort of functions as well, also LAN works). Demo support is something I plan on tackling in the near future as well :-)

Chu said:

Spot on!! :-) it is also worth noting that our SDL2 conversion is nearly complete, and interpolation has been totally patched up, and I am working on completing true netcode through SDL_Net (going to abandon HawkNL, but the netcode sort of functions as well, also LAN works). Demo support is something I plan on tackling in the near future as well :-)

Chu said:

Spot on!! :-) it is also worth noting that our SDL2 conversion is nearly complete

Chu said:

our SDL2 conversion

Chu said:

our

?????

?? Oops, I use that term to refer to my source port team, not specifically you, sorry if that came out that way! I do not like using "my" since there is more than just me working on 3DGE.

Ugh sorry for the edits, posting from my Android atm :/

Danfun64 said:

?????

The editorial we

Da Werecat said:

Hardly. It's too much of a speedrunning and emulation tool to be a good novice port. Even considering the amount of features, its menu could use some improvement.

What I wanted is a port that allows to play Doom like an ordinary game - with an adequate menu that isn't barebones, but also doesn't flood the player with tons of options that are unnecessary or even harmful during a first playthrough. It's kind of a lost experience these days, at least when it comes to third-party exes.

Exactly what I want... Something polished, has all the features that source ports have but doesn't force you to mess with them, etc. I wish the steam version was like this, it would sell a lot more for sure...

Fired up odamex... Not what I wanted at all. Looks like to do what I want I'll need to set up a dedicated server every time I want to play co-op with a friend which makes saving a bitch if possible at all...

What do you guys mean by "demo"???

Do even the peer to peer multiplayer ports that still exist allow reliable re-loading of coop saves? Did vanilla even? Honest question because I could never get it to work back during the modem-to-modem days with my friend down the street and we'd always just warp to the last map we were on. Haven't tried since

I downloaded legacy again to see if it would work... Well the main problem of the colors being messed up is gone, it started out broken for a few seconds then corrects. But not only is the frame rate capped at 30, but the other issue still resides. The mouse is very glitchy, some times I'll click and it won't stop shooting on it's own or won't shoot at all.

Are you guys positive there's no way to lan with doom retro because that would be a god send

I feel youre asking for too much. There is no perfect sourceport.

We've said all the options available havent we?

Welcome back Ralphis.

Ralphis said:

Do even the peer to peer multiplayer ports that still exist allow reliable re-loading of coop saves? Did vanilla even?

Yes and yes. Vanilla, Chocolate, Prboom+ and Eternity have a persisting anomaly in that who you are depends on your connection order, not the save file. ZDoom will attempt to restore the correct players based off of player names.

Ralphis said:

Honest question because I could never get it to work back during the modem-to-modem days with my friend down the street and we'd always just warp to the last map we were on. Haven't tried since

While I'm unsure on the order of operations Vanilla takes from startup commands, this almost sounds like you weren't actually loading the save but instead just map warping. There's no logic in saved games to warp-on-error either way.