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tuo

Classic Doom Multiplayer without Loadouts

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I know, but many asked wether SnapMap will enable us to bring classic deathmatch back, and nobody posted this (I also forget that they mentioned it so prominently).

Might ease the minds of some doom fans who didn't like the beta. Might give them some hope for "old school" classic 4 player deathmatch. If id mentions it so early in the marketing cycle, it might actually be included at game release as a pre-made SnapMap mode, who knows?

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Gotcha ;)

Hopefully snapmap does a good job of serving up good old fashioned gameplay for the ones who want it. I really hope the amount of map building and customization options we get allow for new and interesting levels and personality. That's my main concern. Otherwise it looks like it will serve its purpose well :)

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What we need is a way to edit the maps themselves (heatwave, inferno, disposal, ect) and change the parameters and triggers as we see fit. Then host that game on our own server so people can play whatever style they want.

As for SnapMap, there is a 4 player limit probably due to console power. Hopefully some hackers find a way too get around that for the PC master race.

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Zemini said:

What we need is a way to edit the maps themselves (heatwave, inferno, disposal, ect) and change the parameters and triggers as we see fit. Then host that game on our own server so people can play whatever style they want.

As for SnapMap, there is a 4 player limit probably due to console power. Hopefully some hackers find a way too get around that for the PC master race.


We will see next monday what parameters we will be able to tweak. I am looking forward to it, it might be quite good. We won't be able to change basic architecture / meshes / textures with SnapMap, so much is clear.

The 4 Player Limit is still kinda a mystery to me. When you see the screenshots we have been presented of SnapMap, there are three counters on top. I think it's like "Memory", "Network" and "Object" IIRC, so they already have something in place to level it out, since SnapMap is multi-platform (or am I imagingin this?). So why not have a preset like:
4 Players : you have so and so much network bandwith
8 Players : you have less memory bandwith (moving/interactive, persistent objects) than with 4 players
16 Players : you may place exactly one super shotgun and one health kit...have fun and make good use of it

You catch my drift.

Still, I was a bit surprised seeing that trailer again (I searched for that moment with the demons swimming in the tanks) and Straton actually mentioning exactly what was speculated here, if it was possible etc.

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I think it's for network reasons. I stopped being so upset when it was explained in some detail in another thread. I'd link but I'm kinda in a hurry and at work sry

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Zemini said:

What we need is a way to edit the maps themselves (heatwave, inferno, disposal, ect) and change the parameters and triggers as we see fit. Then host that game on our own server so people can play whatever style they want.

As for SnapMap, there is a 4 player limit probably due to console power. Hopefully some hackers find a way too get around that for the PC master race.

Even with idStudio you can't just edit any map...you need the actual map file with linked assets to be provided with tools. Since mp maps are not SnapMaps then it won't be editable in Snapmap.

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That's an old video that "doesn't reflect" the latest Product and yes, Traditional 4 Players DM will be possible with SnapMap (4 only) .

About loadouts i'm not sure, I heard SnapMap will allow creating custom modes, We'll see this Monday .

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DMGUYDZ64 said:

That's an old video that "doesn't reflect" the latest Product and yes, Traditional 4 Players DM will be possible with SnapMap (4 only) .

About loadouts i'm not sure, I heard SnapMap will allow creating custom modes, We'll see this Monday .


They did show weapons spinning and floating in air and it costing money to purchase, I don't see why they couldn't allow weapons to be placed in maps regularly and negate a loadout.
Not sure how they would work when players have more than two weapons, though, the weapon wheel didn't appear in the Beta

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wheresthebeef said:

They did show weapons spinning and floating in air and it costing money to purchase, I don't see why they couldn't allow weapons to be placed in maps regularly and negate a loadout.
Not sure how they would work when players have more than two weapons, though, the weapon wheel didn't appear in the Beta

We wouldn't have the weapon wheel in beta due to the load out system, the weapons on map thing could have been more replace your current weapon with the one you near enough to pick up.

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id.dav said:

Even with idStudio you can't just edit any map...you need the actual map file with linked assets to be provided with tools. Since mp maps are not SnapMaps then it won't be editable in Snapmap.


Then I suppose we need to ask id to let us edit their MP and SP maps. That certainly would be nice wouldn't it?

I would also like to play Classic Deathmatch and coop on the rumored re released classic maps too.

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Admit it looks a fair bit better than I expected, the specific geometry still disappoints and it looks like not true classic DM as you still are limited to 2 weapons it looks like. I could be wrong. It also has a "pickup" button which is slower than running over.

Better, but still can edit code so nothing like Brutal Doom or Chex quest or anything like that.

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Eternal0 said:

Better, but still can edit code so nothing like Brutal Doom or Chex quest or anything like that.

I'm not sure why this is something so many people are bringing up, like 3D map editing is difficult enough. I really doubt that that more than like 5% of the people who bring this up actually have the commitment to find or create all the assets and work with scripting code so entirely unlike any Doom port uses ( if it even has scripting code - it could all just be hardcoded into the engine ).

Keep in mind that the actor-definition languages of Eternity, ZDoom, EDGE, and even DeHackEd are very simple and easy to use, and that the community is very open about sharing assets not to mention it's really simple to take assets from other sprite-based FPSes. Even when you dip into the more complex scripting languages in Doom ports, it's still pretty simple and straight-forward ... at least, unless you're shooting for the stars.

Like, sure, maybe you are in that 5%, but there's a lot of reasons why there's not really a lot of mods or maps for modern games, even those with native mod support, except with like Valve and Bethesda game - which have extremely good toolkits and relatively easy map formats, what with Source mainly using brushes for geometry and TES and Fallout games being made primarily of readily-available models, prefabs, and displacements for outdoor areas.

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Arctangent said:

I'm not sure why this is something so many people are bringing up, like 3D map editing is difficult enough. I really doubt that that more than like 5% of the people who bring this up actually have the commitment to find or create all the assets and work with scripting code so entirely unlike any Doom port uses ( if it even has scripting code - it could all just be hardcoded into the engine ).

Keep in mind that the actor-definition languages of Eternity, ZDoom, EDGE, and even DeHackEd are very simple and easy to use, and that the community is very open about sharing assets not to mention it's really simple to take assets from other sprite-based FPSes. Even when you dip into the more complex scripting languages in Doom ports, it's still pretty simple and straight-forward ... at least, unless you're shooting for the stars.

Like, sure, maybe you are in that 5%, but there's a lot of reasons why there's not really a lot of mods or maps for modern games, even those with native mod support, except with like Valve and Bethesda game - which have extremely good toolkits and relatively easy map formats, what with Source mainly using brushes for geometry and TES and Fallout games being made primarily of readily-available models, prefabs, and displacements for outdoor areas.


Because there ARE that 5%. Nobody is saying we can't have snap map and the ability to create other stuff on top of it. Bethesda has flat out said mod tools or anything like that wont be released. Quake 4 hasn't had it's source published like every other id game has, and that was the only bethesda published id game AFAIK. They wait a long time to released the sources, of course, but it's been 4 years longer between D3 -> Source than Q4 release date.

Crysis map maker is actually not that difficult to use and it has mod tools on top of it. The unreal tools are actually not THAT hard to use. Is it harder than snap map or WC3 editor? Sure. However it is there. How about having the option to go deeper and add your own assets if you are willing to spend the time on PC but having snap map be the main thing?

Many things out there only 5% of the people would invest the time in using. Plus, let's be honest, when simple map maker type things are released only 5% of the maps are quality/unique. How many awful super mario maker maps are there compared to the really good ones? There is a larger number overall of good maps but the good to bad ratio is just as bad as the ratio of people willing to utilize mod tools to create something unique. How many people actually use minecraft to create something like the ability to program in basic or create a calculator or anything else? If anything, using the blocks in minecraft to create this stuff is FAR more difficult than actual programming or map making.

I'm really happy with what snapmap is looking like. It makes it easy for many things, it also makes it harder for other things and the fact you can't create new assets at all is disappointing.

There may only be 5% but look at the stuff created by fans who could do that kind of stuff due to having deeper access to the game. Stuff like project melee for smash or how about the Q and Alex art mods for Street Fighter V, or the tons of content regularly created for TF2 by fans, there have been whole new game modes created by them. The release of the source film maker exploded the community and created so much new content but only a very small percentage of people who use it create anything worthwhile.

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Eternal0 said:

Crysis map maker is actually not that difficult to use and it has mod tools on top of it. The unreal tools are actually not THAT hard to use. Is it harder than snap map or WC3 editor? Sure. However it is there. How about having the option to go deeper and add your own assets if you are willing to spend the time on PC but having snap map be the main thing?

But CryEngine/UnrealED doesn't have to deal with Mega Textures so the difficulty curve isn't as severe as iD Studio 6

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Eternal0 said:

Bethesda has flat out said mod tools or anything like that wont be released.

No they haven't. Although don't be surprised if they don't because idStudio for idtech6 requires an actual server farm to use and operate. We've gone beyond the point where these sorts of tools actually work independently on your household computer.

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as large as a number it is for people who keep clamoring for its release, they seem to have the wrong idea regarding idstudio and thinking of it as a sort of dev fork of the Hammer Editor or anything remotely close to user-friendly.

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Stupid 4 players limit ruins everything. Just wait for multiplayer DLC with new modes.

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NoisM said:

Stupid 4 players limit ruins everything. Just wait for multiplayer DLC with new modes.

Oh, so that's why you guys hate DLCs

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Edward850 said:

No they haven't. Although don't be surprised if they don't because idStudio for idtech6 requires an actual server farm to use and operate. We've gone beyond the point where these sorts of tools actually work independently on your household computer.

http://www.pcgamer.com/doom-will-not-get-mod-support-in-addition-to-snapmap/

”Everything that we’re doing on the mod side will be through SnapMap,” Hines said when asked about modding tools in addition to SnapMap.


Maybe they'll improve snapmap, but there wont be additional mod tools beyond it unless Bethesda changes their mind.

If it's true that idtech6 requires a server farm to use and operate then there is some serious bloat that needs trimming when this is the recommended Unreal 4 editor requirements from Epic:

Desktop PC or Mac.
Windows 7 64-bit or Mac OS X 10.9.2 or later.
Quad-core Intel or AMD processor, 2.5 GHz or faster.
NVIDIA GeForce 470 GTX or AMD Radeon 6870 HD series card or higher.
8 GB RAM

And Unreal 4 isn't exactly a slouch of an engine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgT1SgZK3y8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3s6JLlfNe8

NoirSuede said:

But CryEngine/UnrealED doesn't have to deal with Mega Textures so the difficulty curve isn't as severe as iD Studio 6


http://www.venturebeat.com/2015/06/17/bethesda-wins-the-attention-war-by-breaking-the-game-marketing-rules-for-doom-fallout-4/view-all/

GamesBeat: Was John Carmack any part of this engine, or any more than previous engines?

Hines: Truthfully, yes. John was at id so long that his work is in there. But a lot of this was born when he left. The tech team reevaluated—what are we building on? What are we using? Does this help us making the best games faster? Does it give our developers tools? Are we in the business of making technology or making games? A lot of what’s in id Tech 6 is a shift toward an engine that allows for more flexibility, with an eye toward the games.

GamesBeat: Was it just the levels or my imagination? It seems a lot lighter.

Hines: A lot more lighting, a lot more stuff that we didn’t—megatextures doesn’t allow for dynamic lighting. That’s the opposite of how megatextures work. It’s all baked-in stuff. Part of id Tech 6 is allowing for dynamic lighting, smoke and particle effects, a lot of stuff that just wasn’t part of the picture in previous versions.


No megatextures for Doom and likely not used in idtech6 anymore, certainly not required.

In addition expediency is being pushed to the forefront for development, this would belie them using something that is extremely bulky, difficult, or time consuming to use. This points to more efficient tools and less resources to create things. So not needing huge amounts of time and computing power to create assets and put them into a project seems important. Plus, as I said, Unreal has a lot of things it does extremely well while competing with idtech6 graphically and having a much much much lower overhead.

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Eternal0 said:

If it's true that idtech6 requires a server farm to use and operate then there is some serious bloat that needs trimming

I'm pretty sure it's less about "bloat" and more about time efficiency.

Y'know, running everything on a cloud so updates go between developers near instantly. Because the tools are made to be used by an entire team, not just one or two people.

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Arctangent said:

I'm pretty sure it's less about "bloat" and more about time efficiency.

Y'know, running everything on a cloud so updates go between developers near instantly. Because the tools are made to be used by an entire team, not just one or two people.


There is literally half a dozen ways to do this that already exist specifically for game development and aren't tied to one game engine. How do you think games that use 10~15 different programmers just for AI do it? Have you ever looked at the credits list for a game like the Arkham Series or Assassin's Creed? Do you honestly think that they are doing something for 1~2 people with a team that large? Hell, when you want to go specific to engines even Unity3D has systems in place for this for large teams. Those are all scalable. If idtech6 always requires a huge group of servers even for a small team project then there is bloat in design.

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Except Unity and Unreal are made for anyone from Mr. Big to some random jabroni in his garage. IdTech 6 is designed solely for id and its sister companies. That's not bloat, that's priorities.

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Jaxxoon R said:

Except Unity and Unreal are made for anyone from Mr. Big to some random jabroni in his garage. IdTech 6 is designed solely for id and its sister companies. That's not bloat, that's priorities.


Even better if the engine is designed specifically with a certain type of game in mind. Unreal Engine and Unity are designed to work with any type of game, except for maybe MMORPGs.

Sometimes, if you can handle it, designing an engine from the ground up with a specific game and team in mind is the better idea, that way you can focus your resources on what matters most.

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Jaxxoon R said:

Except Unity and Unreal are made for anyone from Mr. Big to some random jabroni in his garage. IdTech 6 is designed solely for id and its sister companies. That's not bloat, that's priorities.


That is terrible logic, AND it's also completely wrong. What had to do with server farms was related to megatextures not proper version control and this is idtech FIVE not six which I've already shown megatextures likely have been ditched for idtech6.

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/299916407238443010

http://www.bethblog.com/2013/02/08/rage-tool-kit-available-today-on-steam/

they actually released Rage mod tools. If you chose to use no-mega textures the modding was very possible on a home PC. The engine wasn't optimized for it but it was possible.

This is all simple google stuff than nobody but me seems bothering to do and just spouting things half heard. :|

Feel free to show me I'm wrong with some actual sources. Please, seriously, I'd be glad to be wrong. Show me where idtech6 uses server farms for development beyond megatextures, if it even uses them, or where it'd be impossible to use for a small team. Cite quotes and sources for your statements.

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Jaxxoon R said:

Except Unity and Unreal are made for anyone from Mr. Big to some random jabroni in his garage. IdTech 6 is designed solely for id and its sister companies. That's not bloat, that's priorities.

On top of that, the idtech6 engine isn't exactly the same as Unity or Unreal at all. They need systems for rapid construction (and compression) of virtual texture pages and shadow mapping, ontop of asset distribution and resource package compilation. When it comes to waiting for prototype resources to send to someone else (say, the testers), you really don't want your own system to be building/compressing the texture pages, that's actually just a colossal waste of time.
I also recall something about having multiple users touch the same asset at once? Can't really confirm that but it wouldn't surprise me if their map editor allowed one person to work on the mesh while another worked on the texture pages. In fact it'd be kind of expected. It makes me wonder how the asset compilation works for Snapmap because that'll need people building distinct disconnected objects, which would exactly work with quickfire testing.

Really, this alleged bloat is summarized as "I don't understand how two game engines can be drastically different". Very easily, by the way.

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Edward850 said:

On top of that, the idtech6 engine isn't exactly the same as Unity or Unreal at all. They need systems for rapid constructions of virtual texture pages and shadow mapping, ontop of asset distribution and resource package compilation. When it comes to waiting for waiting to prototype resources to send to someone else (say, the testers), you really don't want your own system to be building/compressing the texture pages, that's actually just a colossal waste of time.

Really, this alleged bloat is summarized as "I don't understand how two game engines can be drastically different".

Look at above post. Cite sources for your statements about server farms for version control for idtech6 or hell, even 5. It's poorly designed if it can't be scaled. If you have two projects being developed one with 40 people one with 250 and both require 300 cpus just to handle version control there is a problem with your tools. If anything, that slows down production because now you need a huge team just for the server management. You drastically increase the costs of production.


Storing assets takes a lot of space, but that doesn't take hundreds of servers, and you don't need massive amounts of CPU power to store things. Handling code version control for a team doesn't take hundreds of servers period. Both are always scalable based on needs in any engine I've ever heard of, period. You can look up anything and you'll find that.

Creating assets is totally different, I understand that taking huge servers as both teams can easily create an asset that requires as much processing power to put bake. That is known as a render farm. If you aren't creating massive assets, like megatextures, which aren't even required, then that argument from you flies right out the window

Needing a giant server farm to store and share code there is bloat in your tools. If you don't understand that then you aren't even capable of using google to find out that cloud computing is scalable you don't need a huge farm. You could manage a cloud with even a single four rack server depending on your needs and team size.

Really this whole thing boils down to "I couldn't even look up the fact there is tools for idtech5 that don't require server farms and you can create assets other than megatextures" which is done very easily, by the way.

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