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The Metal / Rock Music Discussion Thread

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GoatLord said:

Lol at the audacity of anyone claiming metal isn't a form of rock music. Metal is a concentrated form of the most aggressive elements of rock and roll (distortion, extensive solos, low tuning, a lack of a central key, palm muting) combined with idiosyncratic elements that occasionally draw from outside sources. This is where classical melodic phrasing, blast beats, the reliance on power chords, percussive use of harmonics, dual guitar harmonies, hardcore motifs and ambient passages arise from. So it is fundamentally a style of rock and roll, but also has a number of other influences.


It CAME from rock, and bacame a genre of its own. Deal with it.

But seriously, this could be discussed for an eternity. Very complex issue with alooooot of factors to deal with.

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It is a genre all it's own, no doubt about it.

But to say it isn't an evolved form of rock is silly.

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Here's another topic: Drastic Vocal Changes

One of the most abrupt vocal changes I can think of is Corey Taylor from Iowa to Subliminal Verses. To me, he went from one of the heaviest popular metal vocalists of our time to something not even remotely resembling it. Granted, they weren't necessarily bad vocals...but there was a definite change. He didn't sound as angry or as in your face. I get that he was trying to show that he wasn't just restricted to harsh vocals...but even after the Subliminal shows, his vocal style just changed. Be it from injury or choice, I think he much worse.

Live Comparison:

Spoiler


2002 (A year after the release of Iowa)




2004 (The Year Subliminal Verses was released)



I wish he still had his Iowa voice.

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Most drastic I can think of is Shadows from avenged sevenfold. He trained with Axl Rose's vocal coach.
Contrast the "City of Evil" album and everything that followed with everything before it.

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MistAche said:

No it isn't.


Metal very clearly evolved from Rock n Roll, which was already an extension of Blues, which was an extension of Folk music, which of itself was an extension of people playing with things that mad emusical notes, which was an extension of people banging things together to make sounds, which evolved from Cavemen banging rocks together and fucking chimpanzees.

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MistAche said:

I'm not a fan of Revenge, atleast their latest stuff; their first releases are monstrous. I played a show with them (I'm in Heresiarch/Vesicant), in Adelaide last year and they unleashed hell... I prefer Conqueror though.

I never understood why people relate Revenge etc to AoA though... they're completely different. AoA is far more complex, there's a lot more under the surface and in the lyrics. Interesting you dislike their doom sections... I'd say it's some of the best parts in their songs. Their cover of Thergothon's 'Elemental' is killer. Another thing to note, AoA never did anything wrong... from River of Corticone when they were called Sacramentary Abolishment, right through to the Purify EP. Every release is unique and a total masterpiece. Perfect example of a band ending when they should've.


Before reading this post, I knew of 3 different bands called Revenge. I now know of four bands with that name.

I never really got into Canada's black metal Revenge, even though I like similar sounding bands. Maybe they've just yet to click with me. The Colombian speed metal Revenge just flat out stink.

The black thrash Revenge from Greece are just incredible. One of metal's most underrated acts in my mind.

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Here's a thrash act from around my area. The vocalist/guitarist and bassist/back vocalist are two of my closest friends. Solid dudes making solid tunes.

Spoiler



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GooberMan said:

It has a pretty clear lineage back to rock music. Which itself has a pretty clear lineage back to blues, effectively meaning that rock is a form of blues.


Yeah... let's visit Wikipedia to learn about the aesthetics of art and music. I take influences from the thematic/programmatic elements of Wagner and see the Metal I create moreso as a form of Romanticism; as opposed to the retarded druggy/hippy culture of early 'Rock'. Relating an art form to another based entirely on instrumentation is also a dead-end. It's not a form of Rock, that was my statement. Rock may have revolutionized the acoustic concert sound and turned it using electronics into a microcosm of the orchestral palette, but that's where it ends.

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Ajora said:

Before reading this post, I knew of 3 different bands called Revenge. I now know of four bands with that name.


Did you actually read my post? AoA is infinitely more interesting than Revenge. If you aren't even willing to look into it, seems short-sighted to dump it in the same boat... then again, they've always been overlooked.

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Yeah, except when you consider things like Black Sabbath...based on todays standards, their first two albums are not really metal. They are rock to the core with some very dark elements. Ever since them and Led Zeppelin, bands have kept getting prpgressively heavier. Metal didn't just happen one day. It grew from a seed planted in the soil of rock.

Metal exists because rock gave birth to it.

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And actually, a simpler way to state that would be in the form of this question...if metal didn't come from rock...why are albums like "Black Sabbath", "KISS", and "Led Zeppelin", all rock albums, so important to the metal community?

I'll let people answer that question themselves.

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TraceOfSpades said:

Yeah, except when you consider things like Black Sabbath...based on todays standards, their first two albums are not really metal. They are rock to the core with some very dark elements. Ever since them and Led Zeppelin, bands have kept getting prpgressively heavier. Metal didn't just happen one day. It grew from a seed planted in the soil of rock.

Metal exists because rock gave birth to it.


I agree there was a logical progression from the aforementioned bands, into new sub-genre's and they do bear importance as a result. However, I feel you are missing my point altogether Trace.

MistAche said:

'Metal is a form of rock, really...'

No it isn't.


Musical 'Form' doesn't necessarily bind a musical entity to a certain genre. 'Form' can be taken from any musical era, or it can manifest and stand entirely on it's own two feet. If you read into Musical Form, you'll find what I'm saying to be correct. If anymore ego-driven hurt feelings produce arguments here, I can't be blowed replying.

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I don't think anyone is saying metal isn't its own genre. But it definitely falls under the umbrella of Rock.

Example: If someone refered to Slayer as a rock band, I wouldn't tell them they were necessarily wrong.

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Did you absorb what I said? I'm not talking about where metal came from, or genre's at all for that matter. Just because a band uses distorted guitars, and fast drumming doesn't mean it has the same Form as Rock - Which is what you said (Half-assed too I might admit). Form is the overall structure and shape of the sound, the sonic architecture. This can represent anything. It could be in Sonata form, Symphonic form, Binary/Ternary (traditionally found in Rock), Fugue or Prelude forms; or it's form could be unique, or a combination of many.

Today multiple Form's are combined to produce progressive music. If you want to speak in terms of genre's, I'd say that's typically lazy of the times we live in, and doesn't accurately categorize music.

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MistAche said:

Blah blah blah


So...if we just concede and say you're right, will you stop?

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TraceOfSpades said:

So...if we just concede and say you're right, will you stop?


What a weak reply... why not just acknowledge what I'm saying with "Hey, yes you're right. Metal isn't bound to a particular form, and doesn't represent the typical form of Rock". I already agreed above that there are influences that various Metal bands have derived from Rock.

Metal isn't a Form of Rock. Stop saying it is.

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Oh good gravy what did I start. I certainly didn't mean to turn this thread into a slapfight over a throwaway comment. I just thought it was funny that it got changed to "metal/rock" like the other one because of, I'm guessing, people who want to post stuff fairly unrelated to metal in most ways.

I'm sorry. ;_;

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Bashe said:

Oh good gravy what did I start. I certainly didn't mean to turn this thread into a slapfight over a throwaway comment. I just thought it was funny that it got changed to "metal/rock" like the other one because of, I'm guessing, people who want to post stuff fairly unrelated to metal in most ways.

I'm sorry. ;_;


You didn't start anything mate, we're good. Discussions like this present ample opportunities to learn; at least that's why I bother visiting this site, I find it a good resource for knowledge and discussion I'm interested in. As long as it doesn't become a pissing contest, at which point I'll tap out.

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MistAche said:

What a weak reply... why not just acknowledge what I'm saying with "Hey, yes you're right. Metal isn't bound to a particular form, and doesn't represent the typical form of Rock". I already agreed above that there are influences that various Metal bands have derived from Rock.

Metal isn't a Form of Rock. Stop saying it is.


Okay, you're right.

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So, favorite metal album and favorite track off that album?

For me, Ride The Lightning by Metallica is an absolutely flawless album. The Call Of Ktulu is my favorite track. It is a hauntingly beautiful piece. It is performed so well live...especially on S&M disc.

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Ride the Lighting sure is a classic...

I'll pick Bolt Thrower's 'Realm of Chaos' - Lost Souls Domain

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MistAche said:

Ride the Lighting sure is a classic...

I'll pick Bolt Thrower's 'Realm of Chaos' - Lost Souls Domain


Haven't heard of them. I'll go check them out.

(Listening...)

I like it. Nonstop brutality the whole way through.

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I seem to be in the minority in that I find Metallica to be complete overrated shit. Same with Megadeth, Iron Maiden and Anthrax. Bleh.

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^Meh, to each his own. I love Metallica and Megadeth...Maiden, however, I am indifferent to.

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RUSH said:

I seem to be in the minority in that I find Metallica to be complete overrated shit. Same with Megadeth, Iron Maiden and Anthrax. Bleh.


You aren't alone with the last 3, especially Iron Maiden; boring.

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TraceOfSpades said:

Yeah, except when you consider things like Black Sabbath...based on todays standards, their first two albums are not really metal.


What? Everyone knows the Black Sabbath debut invented heavy/doom metal. That should just be common knowledge at this point. It is still metal today. Yeah, the B side is mostly rock but the A side is crushing.

The RYM page entry for the album has the genres perfectly sorted from over 13,000 user votes. I'd say it's pretty universally agreed upon, even in 2016: http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/black_sabbath/black_sabbath/

People vote on genres, and rate music there. I recommend you guys join, it is a great place to find new music and give/receive recommendations. Lots of metal discussion goes on. I have discovered SO much great music from that place. You can add people as friends, write lists, etc.

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There are some great metal tracks on there. But the album as a whole, as essential to the formation of metal as it was, is more psychedelic rock or blues.

Like, the metal tracks were METAL as fuck. But outside of those few tracks...it's a rock album.

At least that's how I always viewed it. I don't want anyone to think I'm claiming to be right. This is just an opinion.

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TraceOfSpades said:

I agree with this a lot, actually. It's hard to find a good modern metal band anymore. The metal scene has become a pissing contest to see who can scream the loudest, play the fastest or most "technical", who's playing in Dropped Whatthefuckever tuning, who has the fastest triggered drums...it's horse shit. There's no emotion anymore. No soul. Just some asshole yelling into a microphone.

I'm sorry, but when you hear Ronnie James Dio yell "I'm buried aliiiiiiive!", You fucking believed it. There was a strong sense of sincerity in his voice...that's what metal is missing nowadays.


Sincerity is how I've always tried to describe older metal vocals, yet couldn't find the word for it. Good Vocals nowadays is getting nearer and nearer to non-existant for bands lately...Pissing contest, sad state of affairs there.

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