Just replayed E1-4

So I replayed E1-3 just recently on Doom Retro and I haven't touched E2 or E3 in over a few years. I'm the E1 cult and I just have some thoughts

I found E2 to be more entertaining than most people do, I generally liked it except fuck Halls of the Damned. That map was just ugh, terrible. But gameplay wise E2 was hard and fun mostly. Aesthetically... no it was ugly and gross. You gotta love the Cyberdemon fight tho :) I remember the first time being utterly terrifying.

E3 was bad. Very bad and not fun, M1-3 was ammo starvation to the max unless I missed some very crucial secrets and it was just meh. Too many pinkies and barons aka bullet sponges. Also too many lost souls hogging up the space and charging me while I try to find ammo to dispatch the bigger threats. And some maps were weird and pointless like gate to limbo. I feel like it had the chance to be great but it feel short, the architecture was good but the gameplay was just bad. Don't get me started on how bad Dis is without pistol start, I beat the damn level in like 5 seconds.

Anyway I just started E4 for the first time :) I beat M1 with 5% left so I'm off to a rough start

Yeah, a lot of people would agree with you and even I do and I haven't played E2M2 - E3. Just by looking at it, it makes me think it's terrible.

How'd you improve it?

E3M1 and M2 don't have any barons, and M3 only has 1 (2 in UV). I don't see how this can be a problem given the ample amount of ammo in that level. There's also tons of health and they even give you the blue armor near the start. The "secrets" are also pathetically easy to find, there's no wall-humping or other shenanigans, except to open one wall near the exit (but you ought to already have the computer map at that point, since it's right next to it). But all the big stashes, like the RL/backback/berserker stash, chaingun, invulnerability, blue armor, etc. are just a matter of walking over to pick them up (and in most cases you can see them from another position).
M2 seems more dificult to me, mainly because of the lost soul hordes and shotgunners, but they're easy enough to deal with if you take your time and don't just run around randomly. Lost souls in particular tend to get stuck on wall edges or even things like impalled bodies, and you can use that to your advantage. The only actual tough part for me would be to kill all the pinkies, if I don't first grab the berserker pack.
M1 isn't hard at all, just slightly irritating if you don't manage to grab the shotgun near the start. M9 however is pretty tough, but of course it's optional.
The rest of the episode isn't that hard either, but there are some nasty surprises like that one fake exit. Still much easier overall that Doom II, or E4 of Ultimate Doom, and let's not even talk about Plutonia.

Frisky said:

Yeah, a lot of people would agree with you and even I do and I haven't played E2M2 - E3. Just by looking at it, it makes me think it's terrible.

How'd you improve it?

Honestly there probably isn't much they could do, I just felt like E3M1 was crazy stupid with there being no weapons for me to handle the Cacos with so I sat there and killed them clip by clip with the pistol, theb E3M2 was slaughter without ammo with there being endless pinkies and lost souls. To improve it they need less lost souls IMO and to add Doom 2 monsters hahaha

hex11 said:

E3M1 and M2 don't have any barons, and M3 only has 1 (2 in UV). I don't see how this can be a problem given the ample amount of ammo in that level. There's also tons of health and they even give you the blue armor near the start. The "secrets" are also pathetically easy to find, there's no wall-humping or other shenanigans, except to open one wall near the exit (but you ought to already have the computer map at that point, since it's right next to it). But all the big stashes, like the RL/backback/berserker stash, chaingun, invulnerability, blue armor, etc. are just a matter of walking over to pick them up (and in most cases you can see them from another position).
M2 seems more dificult to me, mainly because of the lost soul hordes and shotgunners, but they're easy enough to deal with if you take your time and don't just run around randomly. Lost souls in particular tend to get stuck on wall edges or even things like impalled bodies, and you can use that to your advantage. The only actual tough part for me would be to kill all the pinkies, if I don't first grab the berserker pack.
M1 isn't hard at all, just slightly irritating if you don't manage to grab the shotgun near the start. M9 however is pretty tough, but of course it's optional.
The rest of the episode isn't that hard either, but there are some nasty surprises like that one fake exit. Still much easier overall that Doom II, or E4 of Ultimate Doom, and let's not even talk about Plutonia.

I beat Putonia on UV and that's something I wish I never started... It was so hard, and isn't the fake exit in Doom in E2M6? That one actually killed me. But anyway its not that E3 is too hard and E3M1 certainly isn't hard, but tell me it's not monotonous. This is the level: Pistol kill Cacos (takes 1-2mins), grab shotgun and kill Caco + Imps (not bad), kill pinky and run out of ammo, kill everything else in the level with fist with no berserk pack. That includes like five pinkies and a ton of imps if I had a berserk pack I'd be fine

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

Honestly there probably isn't much they could do, I just felt like E3M1 was crazy stupid with there being no weapons for me to handle the Cacos with so I sat there and killed them clip by clip with the pistol

I hate to use the overused (and terrible) "git gud" meme, but you're really making this way more annoying and hard for yourself by not using what's available to you. And by that I don't even mean speedrun or other really advanced stuff.

Have the Cacos and the Imps infight to wear them down a little for example. You also don't have to fight everything immediately. Let the Cacos come out, let them occupy themselves with the imps for a moment, run in, grab the shotgun, come back, rain hot lead.

I actually like having to be a little crafty in your approach instead of just wailing on things ad nauseam. The beginning of E3M1 is a neat little example for that.

Another, arguably more exciting example for a similar structure: Lunatic Map02 with the 2 Barons at the start. Really annoying to fight with shotgun/chaingun in the beginning, but take some risks and run a little further, and you got a nice little Manc/Baron infight situation + the SSG.

Actually E3 is full of opportunities for creative play. If you're just tackling enemies as they're presented instead of searching for more advantageous opportunities, there's no wonder it bored you.

thaquoth said:

I hate to use the overused (and terrible) "git gud" meme, but you're really making this way more annoying and hard for yourself by not using what's available to you. And by that I don't even mean speedrun or other really advanced stuff.

Have the Cacos and the Imps infight to wear them down a little for example. You also don't have to fight everything immediately. Let the Cacos come out, let them occupy themselves with the imps for a moment, run in, grab the shotgun, come back, rain hot lead.

I actually like having to be a little crafty in your approach instead of just wailing on things ad nauseam. The beginning of E3M1 is a neat little example for that.

Another, arguably more exciting example for a similar structure: Lunatic Map02 with the 2 Barons at the start. Really annoying to fight with shotgun/chaingun in the beginning, but take some risks and run a little further, and you got a nice little Manc/Baron infight situation + the SSG.

I don't know if it was because I was playing in Doom Retro but the cacos wouldn't come out, trust me I used every infighting opportunity I could to save ammo. I died multiple times because of this tho haha, Barons are my number one target for infighting because they slaughter anything else but don't get weakened easily

I just finished E1-E3 recently. I played through on ultra-violence. I died a few times, but made it through fine enough. The only way I managed to defeat the Mastermind was for him to get distracted fighting a Baron so I could pummel him with rockets. Crazy fluke.

Started on E4 now, but on an easier difficulty because...you know, it's stupid hard.

MusicallyInspired said:

I just finished E1-E3 recently. I played through on ultra-violence. I died a few times, but made it through fine enough. The only way I managed to defeat the Mastermind was for him to get distracted fighting a Baron so I could pummel him with rockets. Crazy fluke.

Started on E4 now, but on an easier difficulty because...you know, it's stupid hard.

WHAT? But E4 is the funnest on UV!!?? Honestly E4 is neck and neck with E1 for me in the fun department. It does start out a bit rough and you prolly don't want to max the first level unless your Really jiving for some action, TRENT REZNOR HAS SUMMONED DEATH UPON YOU!!!

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

E3 was bad. Very bad and not fun, M1-3 was ammo starvation to the max unless I missed some very crucial secrets and it was just meh. Too many pinkies and barons aka bullet sponges. Also too many lost souls hogging up the space and charging me while I try to find ammo to dispatch the bigger threats. And some maps were weird and pointless like gate to limbo. I feel like it had the chance to be great but it feel short, the architecture was good but the gameplay was just bad. Don't get me started on how bad Dis is without pistol start, I beat the damn level in like 5 seconds.

I always kinda liked E3's gothic feel. Mt. Erebus was always the best level to me, and I kind of have this weird soft spot for hell keep. Gate to Limbo was always my least favourite level, sad that it was the one right before the Spiderdemon. To make it more far I just fight him with a chaingun, just to make it more of a challenge.

DoctaCaffeine said:

I always kinda liked E3's gothic feel. Mt. Erebus was always the best level to me, and I kind of have this weird soft spot for hell keep. Gate to Limbo was always my least favourite level, sad that it was the one right before the Spiderdemon. To make it more far I just fight him with a chaingun, just to make it more of a challenge.

Haha that's a good idea, I knew spiderdemon was a let down after I fought him the first time but only 3 bfgs got him.... 3

I love replaying E2M2 on Nightmare. It's such a fun map, there's so much to do and the backtracking means you are constantly on the run. If I can handle E2M1 and get the plasma rifle I can usually reach E2M6 without much of a problem.

E3M1's beginning is all about learning to make monsters infight; it's a preface to E3M8 on pistol-start. There is ample ammo for the pistol to kill the cacos when you make them fight the imps. Getting the nearby shotgun is meant to force players to get better at not only navigating tight, curving ledges quickly (and yes, in '93 those ledges were tight), but also at killing enemies quickly on-the-fly; a preface to speedrunning and practice going for par times.

I love E3; best episode of Doom 1.

Fonze said:

E3M1's beginning is all about learning to make monsters infight; it's a preface to E3M8 on pistol-start. There is ample ammo for the pistol to kill the cacos when you make them fight the imps. Getting the nearby shotgun is meant to force players to get better at not only navigating tight, curving ledges quickly (and yes, in '93 those ledges were tight), but also at killing enemies quickly on-the-fly; a preface to speedrunning and practice going for par times.

I love E3; best episode of Doom 1.

I never really thought of that, I remember when I first Doom I played Keyboard only lol. It was hardddd

Fonze said:

E3M1's beginning is all about learning to make monsters infight; it's a preface to E3M8 on pistol-start. There is ample ammo for the pistol to kill the cacos when you make them fight the imps. Getting the nearby shotgun is meant to force players to get better at not only navigating tight, curving ledges quickly (and yes, in '93 those ledges were tight), but also at killing enemies quickly on-the-fly; a preface to speedrunning and practice going for par times.

I love E3; best episode of Doom 1.

It's been a while since I played E3 vanilla, but is there really not enough pistol ammo on UV there to kill the Imps and Cacos? I remember doing it just fine.

Oh yeah, there's definitely enough pistol ammo available in the starting yard to comfortably slowball through everything out there (uh, at least on UV). These days this is something many of us would find trite, of course, hence the more common approach of running for a bigger weapon later in the level (and perhaps just never returning to fight those cacos at all). Ironically, I believe the old official Sybex guide used to espouse a very similar approach (that or the tricksier feat of using the door-close switch and then slipping under the latch as it closes, leaving the cacos locked outside), although more for the reason that pistoling 2 cacodemons was widely considered much more dangerous/challenging back then.

I wasn't implying that there wasn't enough without them infighting, though rereading it I can see how you'd get that. I was simply stating that ammo wasn't a problem; "ample" being an excess.

First Playthrough of E4 and loving it :)

Fun little opening map E4M1
WTF!? Load last save, die, repeat E4M2
Awesome open map E4M3
Short fun map E4M4
Awesome looking and just fun also got BFG secret in E4M5 :)

I'm not done but I kinda wish E3 never existed and I had this instead

See? I wasn't joking, E4 is really good imo and really captures what makes doom 1 a different game then doom 2. It looks really nice as well.

My new opinion is the E4M6 is dumb, I hate it because although it was fun difficult in places it was also super cheap basically making you take damage from the lava floor every time you wanted to advance to the next area making it near impossible for me

Jayextee said:

Actually E3 is full of opportunities for creative play. If you're just tackling enemies as they're presented instead of searching for more advantageous opportunities, there's no wonder it bored you.

This. I used to suck at E3 until I figured out that I couldn't just play the same way I had been playing. If anything, the game should be praised for this. One of the things that keeps it fresh is that you don't approach every level the same way and the action doesn't play out the same every time.

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

My new opinion is the E4M6 is dumb, I hate it because although it was fun difficult in places it was also super cheap basically making you take damage from the lava floor every time you wanted to advance to the next area making it near impossible for me

It's frequently cited as the best of E4, along with E4M2, but that could just be the usual Romero dickriding. I also thought that the damaging lava was overly excessive and the map very annoying to navigate if you're playing it for the first time and trying to explore everything.

rileymartin said:

It's frequently cited as the best of E4, along with E4M2, but that could just be the usual Romero dickriding. I also thought that the damaging lava was overly excessive and the map very annoying to navigate if you're playing it for the first time and trying to explore everything.

I respect your opinion, but I never really found it annoying. It would be annoying if there were a bunch of levels like that, but being that there's only a few, to me it was just a different kind of challenge. And I don't keep track of who made which levels so that's a completely unbiased opinion.

It just felt over the top, like it was forcing me to take excessive damage beyond my control (like waiting for those lifts)