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Byeblothingal 1024

Annoying things about Doom editing

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I have noticed that in Doom Builder 2 there is a limit of amounts of linedefs you can use in 1 wad before it wont shell out any more (which is 65,535 linedefs) & when editing in Hexen Format; that you can only put in a max of 255 sector reference tags....which is fuckin horse shit because I have made at least 3 wads where I needed more linedefs then 65,535 AND found myself needing more than 255 sector reference tags but have had to change my original plans for the wad; due to fuckage.

Does anyone know if theres an editor for doom that allows more than 65,535 linedefs or more than 255 linedef sector reference tags in Hexen format? I know it varies between editors because I remember in WadAuthor it was a lot less lines than 65,535 that you were allowed to use & in DoomCAD it was a piss poor, suck my ass; amount. I would like to switch editors but only if the editor switched to is more expansive than Doom Builder 2 in the listed ways...? anyone know?

Ive also noticed that after putting in about 35,000 linedefs it starts randomly giving me this "too many sectors in a single sub sector" horseshit & then I go back into the map & takeback the last move involving moving a vortex & go back into the level test run & it works again & then continue with exactly what it gave me that error for in the map editing & run the level test run again & it works. From this point on it randomly gives me this error when it is not true until im done making the god dam motherfuckin wad. Its right around when I have half the total amount of lines I can possibly put in. Has anyone else ever seen this?

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It's not a limit of the map editor (DB2), it's a limit of the map format (Hexen format) or of the node format (given by the node builder that you have set in Game Configurations of the map editor). Make maps in UDMF format, that one is theoretically unlimited.

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scifista42 said:

It's not a limit of the map editor (DB2), it's a limit of the map format (Hexen format). Make maps in UDMF format, that one is theoretically unlimited.

Does UDMF format allow all the cool stuff that Hexen format does (such as slopes, sector coloring, swimable liquids, 3D floors & such) ? because if so; THEN YOU MAY HAVE JUST SOLVED MY PROBLEM! I have never tried editing in UDMF mode. Is that what its called in the editor "Doom in UDMF format" ?

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scifista42 said:

UDMF has everything Hexen format has plus more. And yes, it's what the editor calls "Doom in UDMF format".

HOLY SHIT!! god dammit, WHY have I never used this mode? ill try it & check it out for sure. So it will allow more that 65,535 linedefs AND more than 255 sector linedef reference tags? Thats AWESOME if its that simple of a salutation but fuckin hell; all the hardship I have gone through JUST BECAUSE I havent tried anything except; Doom in Doom format, Doom in Hexen format, Heretic in heretic format, Heretic in Hexin format.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!! <---- ::kisses both your ass cheeks with glee::

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ChekaAgent said:

What the hell is 'pissages'?

lol "pissages"; "its a reference to any number of bothers on one's list more than 1." in this case = I had 2 pissages on my list. But the 1st person to address the question seems to have solved my problem & I have rightfully kissed both his ass cheeks for the knowledge.

HOPEFULLY I HAVE EQUALLY GOOD ADVICE TO BOTH OF YOU. But you have to tell me you edit & make maps & have been kicked out of the program before & lost work because the program had an error during the map editing. Is this the case?

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Small passages in your town frequently used by drunk people who, after pub closing time and being rather far from home, engage in micturition to powerfully-scent said passages with the aroma of urine during the day.

There are a few in my hometown, which I avoid if I can. If not, it really is an effort to hold a full lung capacity of breath if I need to walk down one of these pissages for any reason. Ew, what a smell.

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Byeblothingal 1024 said:

HOPEFULLY I HAVE EQUALLY GOOD ADVICE TO BOTH OF YOU. But you have to tell me you edit & make maps & have been kicked out of the program before & lost work because the program had an error during the map editing. Is this the case?

Well, yes, but I already know what to do if that happens: https://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-editing/71232-doom-builder-crashed-didnt-save-one-weird-trick-to-get-your-work-back/

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Jayextee said:

Small passages in your town frequently used by drunk people who, after pub closing time and being rather far from home, engage in micturition to powerfully-scent said passages with the aroma of urine during the day.

There are a few in my hometown, which I avoid if I can. If not, it really is an effort to hold a full lung capacity of breath if I need to walk down one of these pissages for any reason. Ew, what a smell.

lol well, now ya got 2 definitions for the word;
1.) things that chap your ass &
2.) a reference to foul smell due to a heavily encumbered overwhelming preponderance of urine smell that is positively indicative of & exclusively concordant with; foul smelling peaw-ness...

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Byeblothingal 1024 said:

So it will allow more that 65,535 linedefs


Just for information, both DoomBuilder2 and GZDoombuilder will allow you to build past 65k sidedefs. They will automatically do 'sidedef packing', basically compression for identical sidedefs. GZDoombuilder has two options to prevent packing for tagged and/or actionable linedefs. ZDBSP can build maps with sidedef compression, ZDoom / EE can run it.

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scifista42 said:

HAH! I have a MUCH easier solution than that;
Stay right there in the map editor (I know this works in Doom Builder 2 for sure) & simply hold down "ctrl" with your pinky finger while you click the " X " on the VERY top right corner of the error box at the EXACT same time you press " S " on the keyboard with your pointer finger & it will save before giving you that error box again. When you click the " X " it stalls out for 1/3rd of a second before giving you the error box again. You get as many tries as it takes to get it right but I usually get it on my 2nd or 3rd try.... Ctrl+S automatically saves the game instantly.

NOW...WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT SALUTATION!? I figured that shit out in refusal to lose the work that the editor attempted to fuckin shit on...the bastard ass motherfucker

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OP reminds me of that Youtube video where some retard keeps bitching how much DB2 sucks because he's reaching the map format limits.

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boris said:

OP reminds me of that Youtube video where some retard keeps bitching how much DB2 sucks because he's reaching the map format limits.

Do you have the link for that video? apparently its an issue non-retards run into also. But if you got the link to the video; I would like to see if they're the same limits I have reached or what he has found. But thankfully the 1st comment on this thread seemed to have my answer.

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Mordeth said:

Just for information, both DoomBuilder2 and GZDoombuilder will allow you to build past 65k sidedefs. They will automatically do 'sidedef packing', basically compression for identical sidedefs. GZDoombuilder has two options to prevent packing for tagged and/or actionable linedefs. ZDBSP can build maps with sidedef compression, ZDoom / EE can run it.

Sidedef packing, yes, but that's still just 65535 sidedefs. You need identical sidedefs to take advantage of it. So, my question is, after sidedef packing, does UDMF allow more than 64k unique sidedefs? In other words, did ZDoom/Eternity up the sidedef (and linedef, vertex, thing, sector, etc) limits in their internal data structures? If so, wow!

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kb1 said:

Sidedef packing, yes, but that's still just 65535 sidedefs. You need identical sidedefs to take advantage of it. So, my question is, after sidedef packing, does UDMF allow more than 64k unique sidedefs? In other words, did ZDoom/Eternity up the sidedef (and linedef, vertex, thing, sector, etc) limits in their internal data structures? If so, wow!


Correct. And afaik in normal format, there's still a limit on 65k unique sidedefs but none in UDMF format.

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I have a little PSA about compressed sidedefs. Once you get to that point, DB2 might end up compressing very important lines together, such as line triggers. I ran into this a few times in a Vela Pax map. In one instance, I had two switches using the same switch textures and actions, but different tags. However DB2 compressed them both into the same "trigger", effectively removing one of them. The fix was to change the texture (I think offsetting the texture worked as well).

It did seem strange to me at the time that the line tag didn't flag it as "different" and keep it from getting compressed. But I don't know the details of sidedef compression enough to know why :P. I think GZDB may have fixed this though.

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Mechadon said:

It did seem strange to me at the time that the line tag didn't flag it as "different" and keep it from getting compressed. But I don't know the details of sidedef compression enough to know why :P. I think GZDB may have fixed this though.


That was doombuilder2 default behaviour, inherited by gzdoombuilder. I ran into this issue, after which Maxed introduced two flags that prevents those sidedefs from being compressed in gzdb.

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Two things about DB2 that annoy me:
1) When splitting a linedef, it will change offsets of the sidedef textures, even if they aren't raised up yet or even textured, causing me to go and set them all back to 0,0.
2) Drawing a new sector or line will cause any nearby untextured sidedefs to be given the default texture automatically.

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A thing that I find annoying in both DB2 and GZDB is that when you delete 2-sided linedefs between different sectors, the editor won't automatically merge the sectors, but it will create glitchy unclosed sectors instead. Similarly when you delete 1-sided linedefs, unless they're fully contained within one sector. Maybe in some really obscure situations, the mapper might desire to create unclosed sectors, but that doesn't explain why merging sectors upon deleting linedefs between them isn't default behavior and the maps become broken instead. I've encountered many inexperienced mappers who ran into this problem, and honestly, it isn't intuitive that you mustn't delete any 2-sided linedefs before manually merging the sectors on their opposite sides, or that you mustn't delete 1-sided linedefs directly. "Delete linedefs WITHOUT merging sectors" should be a special feature, not the default behavior upon pressing Delete on a linedef.

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scifista42 said:

but that doesn't explain why merging sectors upon deleting linedefs between them isn't default behavior and the maps become broken instead.


This is clearly the case of choosing the lesser of two evils. What if the sectors get joined but the mapper wants to do some continued work at that place with the editor clobbering all the setup? Also, which sector should be chosen?

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Graf Zahl said:

1. This is clearly the case of choosing the lesser of two evils.
2. What if the sectors get joined but the mapper wants to do some continued work at that place with the editor clobbering all the setup?
3. Also, which sector should be chosen?

1. To me, the current behavior seems like the greater of two evils. It breaks the map! The other option doesn't.
2. I don't understand what you said here, at all. I'd like to point out that I'm assuming the mapper would delete the linedefs intentionally because he wanted the sectors on their opposite sides to be merged.
3. The bigger one. Or randomly. Like when you delete a vertice between 2 linedefs, merging the linedefs into one - which linedef should be chosen?

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Merging sectors by pressing shift-J deletes the common lines. If that's not good enough you can implement your desired functionality through a plugin ;)

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scifista42 said:

I'd like to point out that I'm assuming the mapper would delete the linedefs intentionally because he wanted the sectors on their opposite sides to be merged.


As they say, assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

Say what you want, but what you propose amounts to intentionally destroying some data just because in some cases it may be convenient.

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Graf Zahl said:

As they say, assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

Say what you want, but what you propose amounts to intentionally destroying some data just because in some cases it may be convenient.

Yeah, it would be really infuriating, not helpful, if a map editor automatically did that.

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boris said:

Merging sectors by pressing shift-J deletes the common lines. If that's not good enough you can implement your desired functionality through a plugin ;)

The convenient-ness of a plugin is even worse than the convenient-ness of pressing a keyboard shortcut on sectors when you want to delete linedefs. The point is to make it impossible to accidentally create unclosed sectors especially for mappers who don't yet know about the concept of unclosed sectors at all, and that linedefs need to be deleted extra carefully and not wherever and whenever.

Graf Zahl said:

Say what you want, but what you propose amounts to intentionally destroying some data just because in some cases it may be convenient.

When you talk about destroyed data, do you mean just the properties of the sector that gets merged with the other sector, or something else? If it's the sector properties, in which case would it NOT be convenient to be able to merge sectors by simply deleting linedefs between them?

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scifista42 said:

When you talk about destroyed data, do you mean just the properties of the sector that gets merged with the other sector, or something else? If it's the sector properties, in which case would it NOT be convenient to be able to merge sectors by simply deleting linedefs between them?

Even if you wanted them automatically instantly merged all the time (which is a real stretch already), you would still be inconvenienced 50% of the time because the program would have to just guess randomly which of the two sectors should be merged into the other, and thus which properties should be preserved.

The way things are now takes only just one extra split-second keyboard command and ensures that you're actually getting the result you want and expect 100% of the time.

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scifista42 said:

The convenient-ness of a plugin is even worse [...]

Not sure why pressing a hotkey that runs an action in the core (and it's not even the core, but the BuilderModes plugin) is be more convenient than pressing a hotkey that runs an action from a 3rd party plugin.

[edit] I just noticed that GZDB actually has the feature you want. Use the backspace key to delete lines (it's called "Dissolve Item" in the options).

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esselfortium said:

Even if you wanted them automatically instantly merged all the time (which is a real stretch already), you would still be inconvenienced 50% of the time because the program would have to just guess randomly which of the two sectors should be merged into the other, and thus which properties should be preserved.

How is it a real stretch? How is it WORSE to have the wrong sector chosen than to have an unclosed sector created? The latter is harder to notice, harder to understand and harder to fix if discovered too late, especially for inexperienced mappers.

esselfortium said:

The way things are now takes only just one extra split-second keyboard command and ensures that you're actually getting the result you want and expect 100% of the time.

New mappers delete linedefs between sectors, intuitively thinking the sectors will get automatically merged, and unknowing that something may break on such a trivial action. The result is NOT what they want and expect.

boris said:

Not sure why pressing a hotkey that runs an action in the core (and it's not even the core, but the BuilderModes plugin) is be more convenient than pressing a hotkey that runs an action from a 3rd party plugin.

The plugin has to be known about, downloaded, and installed. Again, I'm mainly talking about convenience for beginning mappers more than experienced ones.

boris said:

[edit] I just noticed that GZDB actually has the feature you want. Use the backspace key to delete lines (it's called "Dissolve Item" in the options).

Good, now what harm would it do to make it the default behavior of the Delete button when deleting linedefs?

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scifista42 said:

How is it a real stretch? How is it WORSE to have the wrong sector chosen than to have an unclosed sector created? The latter is harder to notice, harder to understand and harder to fix if discovered too late, especially for inexperienced mappers.

Because it is. There isn't much more to it than that. It means that rather than being able to just do what you actually wanted to do, you 50% of the time have to reset all your sector properties that were just needlessly deleted for your convenience.

This suggestion is a terrible "feature" and would actively make this basic task worse by randomizing its behavior, for the sole purpose of being able to leave out one sentence of a new-mapper tutorial. (Which would just be replaced with another sentence lamenting that you have no idea what you're actually going to get when deleting lines.)

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