Let's talk about the flaws of old shooters.

I absolutely HATE Rise of the Triad. For only one reason.

Episode 4.
Damn, the first 3 are actually kinda fun and all, perhaps a bit too labyrinthine, but hey, this was a Wolf3D sequel after all. The bosses are fun, the combat is fun.

But then E4 comes with levels that take you HOURS to complete! Those levels made me scream. Then, there are the Monks. Two variants of them that look EXACTLY the same? Come on. Having so much hitpoints, but a "100% pain chance" and the player having infinite machine gun ammo? That's just stupid. They don't pose any challenge unless you're surrounded with them.
The boss fight is just evil. The first two levels of it are OK. The last is really, really tough and I honestly doubt anyone can understand how to beat El Oscuro without
consulting the Internet. Mandatory rocket-jump? You can't be serious!
(though, I do have to admit that the humour in the game is top-notch, especially the ending and that "Buy a 486!" message. Not to mention the soundtrack :])

bzzrak said:

I absolutely HATE Rise of the Triad. For only one reason.

Episode 4.
Damn, the first 3 are actually kinda fun and all, perhaps a bit too labyrinthine, but hey, this was a Wolf3D sequel after all. The bosses are fun, the combat is fun.

But then E4 comes with levels that take you HOURS to complete! Those levels made me scream. Then, there are the Monks. Two variants of them that look EXACTLY the same? Come on. Having so much hitpoints, but a "100% pain chance" and the player having infinite machine gun ammo? That's just stupid. They don't pose any challenge unless you're surrounded with them.
The boss fight is just evil. The first two levels of it are OK. The last is really, really tough and I honestly doubt anyone can understand how to beat El Oscuro without
consulting the Internet. Mandatory rocket-jump? You can't be serious!
(though, I do have to admit that the humour in the game is top-notch, especially the ending and that "Buy a 486!" message. Not to mention the soundtrack :])

The fat one has a melee only attack and soaks up a lot of damage whereas the skinnier one has a projectile attack and is a bit weaker. I liked the curve ball they threw at the player with the fourth episode (and the opening track Chant).

The first form of El Oscuro was seriously confusing, I didn't know you had to let him exhaust his power and you didn't have to do shit except weave in and out of his attacks.

I think ROTT '95 is OK, it can be fun when you're in the mood for it, but otherwise I think the combat is garbage and the balance is really bizarre. I only ever died to Lightning Guards when they decide to shoot a rocket from their PISTOL. Otherwise the majority of the cast is a pushover and your weapons are pretty OP.

Rise of the Triad is awesome, although I will agree that the amount of health the monks had slowed down the pace of the game a lot. Fantastic power ups, great music, and highly memorable boss battles.

The Na Pali from Unreal kind of got on my nerves (habodeeee!). I remember there was one time when one of them decided it would be a good idea to start meditating in the centre of a doorway, thus completely blocking my progress. They also don't have enough common sense to realise that it's probably not a good idea to walk directly into the line of fire.

they're also piss weak and dies to two shots of anything, and explosives instakills them. very annoying when you're trying to get them to open those secret passages for extra weapons and such.

Imagine how drastically the balancing would change if a Shotgun Guy or Chaingunner required two shotgun (or even SSG) shots instead of one.

Romero and Co. really put a lot of thought into the balancing.

as someone who's played Unreal lately, i have to say that while i can see why the game was so amazing and praised, i find playing the game isn't as fun as i'd want it to be. the main thing that irks me are the non-standard weaponry and bestiary.

It's still the only game I'm aware of where all the guns have a use until the end...even the pistol is good for smashing barrels once you pick up the minigun (as the dispersion gun has gotten too big by this point and is only useful for 3/4-shotting titans with the powerup).

Really hated the insane framerate drop that came with explosions though. (yes I know a patch came out that fixed it, but it also broke a bunch of custom maps)

SiN for example, maybe this is a controversial opinion (love you Levelord), but I think that game is an example of poorly done level design overall.

The different paths and some maps affecting others wasn't a bad idea, but the whole linear design bug had fully bitten everyone by then.

But I actually thought it was the gameplay that was poor in that one...yeah it's cool to experiment with armour for different parts of the body, but not when it lets you take 100 bullets at point blank and not die. (not to mention hideous bugs like the crash in the monster map and the broken torch in the mission pack)

Awesome environments and atmosphere though. (with the best city/industrial ambience anywhere)

Unreal would have been better with some RPG elements implemented ala Deus Ex. There is such a huge emphasis on exploring the huge levels and worldthat it would have been cool if your character sucked at the beginning and slowly you got better and better, or to see locked doors that could be lockpicked, hacking into devices and turrets, an inventory system like Diablo or Deus Ex, stuff like that. It's such a long game too, feels like an actual journey.

The Ultimate DooMer said:

It's still the only game I'm aware of where all the guns have a use until the end...even the pistol is good for smashing barrels once you pick up the minigun (as the dispersion gun has gotten too big by this point and is only useful for 3/4-shotting titans with the powerup).

Actually thought the Minigun was a total waste of ammo for the Auto Mag as each shot did very little damage even with a sustained rate of fire. The Auto Mag however proved to be probably the most reliable handgun I've used throughout an entire shooter.

CARRiON said:

Unreal would have been better with some RPG elements implemented ala Deus Ex. There is such a huge emphasis on exploring the huge levels and worldthat it would have been cool if your character sucked at the beginning and slowly you got better and better, or to see locked doors that could be lockpicked, hacking into devices and turrets, an inventory system like Diablo or Deus Ex, stuff like that. It's such a long game too, feels like an actual journey.

that might've helped its incredible length, yes. the only thing you get to upgrade is the Dispersion Pistol, which turns it into a surprisingly effective Titan killer. that's probably the best application for the gun, but exploring areas usually doesn't net you much of anything else aside from getting a gun or two a few levels earlier. i mean that's the same for Doom, but Doom is a much simpler game, while Unreal's combat requires a lot of dodging and steady aim against every enemy in the game.

Viscra Maelstrom said:

that might've helped its incredible length, yes. the only thing you get to upgrade is the Dispersion Pistol, which turns it into a surprisingly effective Titan killer. that's probably the best application for the gun, but exploring areas usually doesn't net you much of anything else aside from getting a gun or two a few levels earlier. i mean that's the same for Doom, but Doom is a much simpler game, while Unreal's combat requires a lot of dodging and steady aim against every enemy in the game.

Yeah, it feels like it wants to be so much more than just another shooter. RPG elements like stats and an inventory, lots of guns and melee weapons, maybe some form of currency you could use on the Nali for weapon upgrades and armor?

Cliffy B is right, Epic needs to bring Unreal back as a big open world RPG like Skyrim.

CARRiON said:

Yeah, it feels like it wants to be so much more than just another shooter. RPG elements like stats and an inventory, lots of guns and melee weapons, maybe some form of currency you could use on the Nali for weapon upgrades and armor?

Cliffy B is right, Epic needs to bring Unreal back as a big open world RPG like Skyrim.

I'd be down with this 100%.

for some reason the original Shadow Warrior is free on GOG right now.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a piece of shit, but free is free.

darknation said:

for some reason the original Shadow Warrior is free on GOG right now.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a piece of shit, but free is free.

GOG recently got the Redux version, so they made the original free to match Steam.

I recall the aiming in the Redux version of Shadow Warrior to have been horribly off. Rockets and railgun shots swerved off to the upper left.

I wish there was a Shadow Warrior source port better than SWP (Shadow Warrior Port).

SWP 4.3.0 was the better version of that port as it didn't have the crashes the later 4.3.1 and 4.3.2 versions had. I have had no problems so far with SWP 4.3.0, however it has to be put in Windows 7 compatibility mode to fix sound crackling.

The automag is one of the best weapons in Unreal. I suppose the minigun has better DPS, but that's only meaningful in deathmatch.

I think the enemies have way too good AI, it's so unrealistic. If you want to hit a skaarj with the stinger alt fire.. you have to rely on some glitch/fault in their AI. Fire it just when they're "waking up" or just when they've landed after some jump attack (or when they're in some almost dead no dodge berserk attack mode). But normally, you can't fool them that you'd be firing in direction X, when really you're going to fire in direction Y, or predict their dodge direction, they will always dodge incoming projectiles, and the stinger is too slow to refire in their weak moment, so they're ready to dodge when the gun is ready to fire again.

Also they can dodge the homing projectiles, plus it takes way too long to lock them into targets. So the only skaarj you can lock on, is that one after that little village, who is initially back against you, but even he can dodge them, all 6 of them.

Unreal could be fun if it had dumber AI, which they probably have on lower difficulties, but there's also less enemies.. and then it would be boring with not enough things to shoot.

The invulnerability shields on enemies were not a good idea either... That already sucked in Hexen. Too much waiting around.

at least the Mercs aren't fucking everywhere like the goddamn Centaurs and Slaughtars are. and yeah, the Skaarj dodges 50% of everything you throw at it, basically... except for one thing. it doesn't seem to dodge the alt-fire of the flak cannon, meaning you can easily put two shots into one and kill it. and the Eightball is only useful against enemies that don't dodge, or if they do, you get the drop on one. a lot of Unreal's gameplay seems to center around copious amounts of dodging or getting the drop on enemies, which is fine... but the AI is just a little ridiculous in my opinion. not every enemy has to be so smart.

Jimi said:

I think the enemies have way too good AI, it's so unrealistic. If you want to hit a skaarj with the stinger alt fire.. you have to rely on some glitch/fault in their AI. Fire it just when they're "waking up" or just when they've landed after some jump attack (or when they're in some almost dead no dodge berserk attack mode). But normally, you can't fool them that you'd be firing in direction X, when really you're going to fire in direction Y, or predict their dodge direction, they will always dodge incoming projectiles, and the stinger is too slow to refire in their weak moment, so they're ready to dodge when the gun is ready to fire again.

If you want bullshit AI Hexen II has that covered in spades. The Wizard and Angel teleport/shield instantly as long as you have your fire button held down while near them. I noticed this because I'd go off screen with it held down and then go back into view and they'd immediately teleport/shield when I appeared (used Assassin with hand grenade primed). And the Were Jag/Panther with its invulnerable roaring state AND deflection of your projectiles when it's charging towards you.

Jimi said:

Unreal could be fun if it had dumber AI, which they probably have on lower difficulties, but there's also less enemies.. and then it would be boring with not enough things to shoot.

The AI is no different to my knowledge, they just have far less hit points and lesser numbers. Which is boring.

Viscra Maelstrom said:

at least the Mercs aren't fucking everywhere like the goddamn Centaurs and Slaughtars are. and yeah, the Skaarj dodges 50% of everything you throw at it, basically... except for one thing. it doesn't seem to dodge the alt-fire of the flak cannon, meaning you can easily put two shots into one and kill it.

Only the Mercs (and the Krall) are really bad fighters in comparison to the Skaarj so they are much easier to take down.

The Skaarj also have trouble with the unpredictable nature of grenades so the alt fire of the Eightball is extremely effective against them. Also, Skaarj cannot dodge hitscan, so hence the Auto Mag, the ASMD's primary fire and the Rifle are excellent choices for Skaarj at a distance.

E: Also erratically firing the GES Bio-Rifle and catching a Skaarj in the blast radius of the ASMD's combo.