DM player camouflage

At least in ZDaemon, it's possible for a player to change his sprite's color during play (when dead or before spawning). When possible, I try to change my sprite's color to match the one used in most of the map's textures, or of one particular place of the map, especially if camping strategically zoning.

Obvious choices are e.g. brown for Doom II themed maps, matching the marble green on maps that are made mostly out of it, light grey for concrete etc. (another reason for map authors to avoid monochromatic DM arenas!). Depending on the map, even a deep COMPBLUE color or a fiery red/orange may be advantageous.

My perception is that doing so kinda "camouflages" me and results in me getting fragged less often. Does anybody else use this tactic? What do you think about it?

Heard of this before, never tried it myself but I know at least one player that used to do it. Here is the previous thread: https://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-multiplayer/87025-changing-color-to-blend-in-with-the-environment/

It doesn't make very much difference unless your opponent already has trouble tracking player sprites.

It might work in a duel against your grandma, or non doomer friend. There are some things you have to consider. The players uniform covers about half of the sprite, which is not very helpful when the fixed colors, ( your helmet, boots, and skin ) are covering your extremities. So you have a hole in the center of your body, the target still looks the same. Another thing is that players who play deathmatch a lot have a very trained eye that will catch those player sprite frames in any circumstance. The last and most important thing is that if you change your strategy to camping and hiding in shadows (which there are little in all deathmatch maps) just to complement the use camouflage effectively, you will be putting yourself at a severe disadvantage.

Sure, not being seen is a powerful advantage, but you'll have much better results using speed and unpredictable maneuvers steer out of the enemies field of view than use camouflage to pray you won't be noticed.

It's just a color, so it doesn't hurt, but the edge you'll get over your opponents is immeasurably small.

You'd have better luck with this while playing a mod that has a player class that's basically monochrome.

Or, if the mod editor is an idiot, it's entirely possible to create a player class that's invisible with certain player colors, if the class's sprites are monochrome, respects player colors, and has additive translucency - which renders each pixel with an alpha equal to the pixel's brightness.

Which basically means pure black is literally invisible, and dark grays are basically invisible.

Which, yes, means you can set your color to 0 0 0 and become almost literally unseeable.

I think Zandronum does have the ability to draw other players as the default color and to disable translucency on actors altogether, so there are ways to bypass that, but I'm sure that was a fun trick to abuse back when Skulltag got custom player class support and a bunch of modders tossed stuff together with no real foresight to prevent that sort of thing.

Only try-hards do this, and it never works anyway. I believe all 3 main multiplayer ports support enemy colour over-ride anyway, so you are whatever colour your opponent wants you to be a vast majority of the time.

40oz said:

The last and most important thing is that if you change your strategy to camping and hiding in shadows (which there are little in all deathmatch maps)

Lol right. Even as of 2016, not all DM map authors go to painstaking lengths at eliminating camp spots, and on many maps the optimal strategy to get the best K/D ratio (though not necessary winning) is still to spawncamp people. You often get a better K/D ratio and less D than a super-active hunting player, so if you're trying to build XP, it's often the best thing to do.

Though, I admit, I've never seen an effective "concealing shadow" based just on lighting. I have seen plenty concealing spots created by shoot-through walls or dense masked textures, though.

Now, in my experience, whether camouflaging gives an advantage or not depends a lot on the map layout, the general pace of the fight and the number of players involved. Sure, in a mapset like Brit10 where 99% of the time you'll die from BFG tracers that weren't even specifically aimed at you, there's no point in doing so.

But some other mapsets like Greenwar have plenty of monochromatic/single-themed maps. It's hard for me to believe that a white/grey player doesn't have an advantage in a map made entirely of light concrete textures over someone with a fluorescent green or orange. The very least he will attract much less attention by part of a player that's following a "hunt and gun" tactic looking for targets. At least when there are players with much more garish colors around ;-)

Of course, I don't expect camouflage to give you an advantage in a CQ one-on-one either since your opponent will be focused on you. However, if we move away from swapping SSG blasts at CQ, even on 1-on-1 duels there are a few specific situations, like a map with a garish blue/red "disco" theme, full brightness, and distances that favor railgun fighting. Certainly I wouldn't pick yellow or green in such a map, just for the sake of not making it any easier for my opponent!

I'm pretty sure in a FFA DM the best strategy is to move as fast as possible, acquiring the most amount of targets and "stealing" (but lets face it, it's not like anybody is gonna run into a room and wait for people to stop fighting before firing), or just forcibly taking, as many kills as possible through monitoring the battles between other players much the same as infighting in SP, as well as taking advantage of the guy shooting at the guy shooting at you and remembering how many times you've shot playerx or seen them get shot since they last died. Spawn camping might get you a pretty K/D ratio, but it alone will not win the day and there is no substitute for 5 kills in 5 seconds because I ran up on a group of people fighting and rocketed my way to glory. By that token, effective use of projectiles goes a long way in a FFA, like the ole rocket down every hallway.

One thing I've noticed about many DM maps, there's almost always one or two spots on the map where the vast majority of the action happens, which puts a 90% spawn camping player at a disadvantage in my book. Especially when I put 2 and 2 together on what they're doing and hunt their ass down. Repeatedly. But then I also get pissed when people keep taking that teleport to the camper and dying over and over and over... or when people run into a room and shoot somebody who doesn't have a BFG in their hands as somebody else proceeds to nuke the area. Like good job jackass you just got us all killed.

As far as camo goes, I think your best bet would be to match the most-used color in a match (player-wise), so if most players are standard green, a standard green could help you to blend in with others and cause the guy shooting you to lose his target or at least question it for a millisecond. Of course the flip side of that is somebody with your same color running around a corner, then you pop out and become them in the attacker's eyes.

I think camo can be useful for one or two encounters on most players, but after that they'll be looking for you to be that color and and from there it'll likely do little good. Camouflage has a funny way of becoming a target when you know somebody is actively using it. I mean, I might run into a room full of players killing each other and shoot the brightest target, but I also might see you using that camo and want to kill you to stop you from garnering kills, especially if you are contending for first. Still, most likely the closest target will just be the one to get shot first, with the person in the lead a close second. But matching the most common player color makes it tough to decipher which player running around is the competition for 1st that needs to take priority over the other targets. Also, as strange as it may sound, it's important to manage your own deaths. Simple scenario: 3 players; player 1 in lead, 2 contending, 3 is lowest. Player 1 and 2 see each other, start fighting. It becomes clear to player 2 that they will likely die; if they can get player 3 to kill them, their death will not go towards their main competition's score, effectively making it a "free death," at which point they can come back and pick off the two targets as they fight in whichever order suits the situation best while at full health/supplies.

Doom MP is totally cut throat and any deceptive, sneaky tactic needs to be employed as chances are others are doing it too, especially that guy in 1st. Superior strategy and good technique is critical to victory. FFA being naturally more chaotic than duels, there are more benefits to be had with sneaky tactics than in duels, where observation is key.

Are there really situations where one can take a FFA (in particular one with more than 6-8 players and in an arena with a BFG available) as personally as you describe? Down to the point of hunting down individual players or make split-second decisions over who to shoot given the chance?

Or were you talking about more controlled conditions/particularly designed arenas? Sure, even in Brit10-style maps there are some who try and stop campers and BFG/rocket spammers, but due to the nature of those maps, trying to play the part of the "good sportsman" or the "hare" that shakes and hunts down those pesky camping "snakes" doesn't pay: you have to dedicate too many resources playing "counter-camp" that in the meantime other players (including the camper) rack up more kills than you anyway, and even if you manage to break one player's habit, others will take his place soon after, simply because it's the optimal strategy for that map and everybody is going to try it.

Unless there are DM players whose role is precisely that of a hare/pacemaker, and doesn't care much about his own stats. Wouldn't surprise me if there were, esp. in clan play.

Edit: then again, I guess that in a competitive game people will go to absurd levels of hyperspecialization in order to secure a win. As for camouflage, I guess it makes more sense in a game where a death means the end of the game (e.g. Counterstrike) but not in a classical, respawning deathmatch. Though I still doubt how effective the tactics Fonze mentioned would be in a Brit10-like clusterfuck. There simply isn't enough room/time to implement them, when even the top-tier players die nearly as much as the others.

Of course people hunt down specific players and choose targets. You have to manage the battle around you to the best of your ability; might not always work, but it's a facet of good DM strategy and can mean the difference between 1st and 2nd in a highly contested match. Especially given that not all 6-8 of those players might be in that particular area. Most DM maps at least have a back hallway, sometimes that'll lead to a teleporter to the BFG or some other reward, so it's not inconceivable for 5+ seconds to go by in the "main" area with only a handful of those in the DM. But you would do well for everybody in the room, including yourself (unless said person with BFG is dead-last and stands no chance of victory, and you/others are about to die to the person in first), to kill the player with the BFG first, because you know he's just gonna focus on making the most amount of the arena visible for him (from the right angle) when that ball hits something. When there are other people shooting at you, not only does it make it difficult to shoot and kill him/your attacker, you're more likely to instinctively dodge out into the tracers' paths. Every shot he makes, the chances of your survival decrease drastically. If the person with the BFG is contending for first, everybody present just screwed up.

As for hunting campers, as you said it you cannot dedicate too many resources to it, but that doesn't mean you should just let the person rack up easy kills, especially if it is actually getting them ahead (read: other opponents are retarded in a purely academic meaning of the word). Send a rocket or six into that cubby hole and the splash will eventually get them, or be a total prick and spend extra time as you loop the level near the teleporter that leads to the camper and pick off his extra special victims before they get to him. Most maps worth playing won't have one place a camper can sit to cover many spawn points; a lot of campers from my experience tend to camp teleport locations that are frequently used and easily camped, like a cubby hole with a BFG.

I'm speaking from the perspective of somebody who wants to win; "if you ain't first; you're last" and all that. Peacekeeping is not a winning strategy; but a side feud with somebody who annoys you, especially if they are a contender for 1st, can be beneficial. You have to have countermeasures at least to attempt when the situation arises that it is needed. About 5 minutes into DM'ing, you should know who's gonna be the top contenders and who's gonna stay at the bottom. You should also know everybody's color and be able to easily recognize the top 2-or-3 people, even if they have the same color as everyone else, just from the way they move and play. From there it's just a game of keep-away with frags, much the same as NS-style DM's are a game of keep-away with items/powerups. We're both hurt, medikit there? I'm running to the medikit even if I'm at 99% health, just so you can't get it. That's all part of the "thinking on one's toes" aspect of implementing strategy during play. Not to say things will always go to plan, but I guarantee if I didn't employ (most) of these strategies I would do as bad in DM as I typically do in duels, kek. Doom DM's don't typically have a lot going on; just aim, fire, and dodge, so there should be plenty of free time for your brain to process things and develop a strategy for inching your way above the competition.

BTW, I love Brit10.

Maes said:

railgun fighting.

This made me laugh. The amount of maps and/or packs is absurdly low in comparison to most regularly played maps/packs. The amount of text you are putting into this topic isn't hiding the inexperience that is blazing through.

You're correct, someone's inexperience is definitively showing through. But are we certain whose? :-)

> railguns
> instagib
> not forcing opponent color to bright pink
> implying DM wisdom on DW

heh

Maes said:

You're correct, someone's inexperience is definitively showing through. But are we certain whose? :-)

Spoiler

*cough cough* Instagib *cough cough*

Yea, a modifier that is rarely ever played really qualifies as bumping up use of railguns. I'm sure all those years of playing stock skulltag dm (you know, that shitty pack that uses the native railgun), mapping for ns dm/duel (that features a railgun), organizing those FNF events back in the day (where you'd normally see instagib), hell all those stupid skulltag wads that use the shitty railgun surely indicate my inexperience.

You can reference old posts on topics and maybe pass yourself off as relevant, but you can't really drudge up referencing old-ass DM thoughts/experience and pretend they are still relevant. In-game, it doesn't pan out at all. This topic is bunk.

Decay said:

skulltag

That's your problem right there. All the cool kids know that ZDaemon DM is where it's at. And I need no old posts for that ;-)

You're right on one account though: instagib/railgun style isn't getting the love it deserves, nowadays. Which is a pity, because it's a neat departure from classic CQ DM gameplay and allows different -yet related- DM skillsets to shine.

In fact, if your background is really what you claim it is, I'm surprised you didn't see it as an opportunity to chime in more constructively, and offer us all a privileged insight on the matter.

Maes said:

That's your problem right there. All the cool kids know that ZDaemon DM is where it's at. And I need no old posts for that ;-)

You're right on one account though: instagib/railgun style isn't getting the love it deserves, nowadays. Which is a pity, because it's a neat departure from classic CQ DM gameplay and allows different -yet related- DM skillsets to shine.

In fact, if your background is really what you claim it is, I'm surprised you didn't see it as an opportunity to chime in more constructively, and offer us all a privileged insight on the matter.

Did I time travel back to 2008? I pity you if you think zd dm is where it's at. Exp points are pointless, brit10 bfg spamming is boring, and gw is played regularly on both zd and zan and probably odamex too whenever players miraculously crop up there. I've kept tabs on zd's playerbase. It's dead, jim. I used to regularly play ctf on zdaemon, i think i even played a zddl season.

There is no further "insight" on the matter. "Camouflage" is bunk because of colour overriding.

you talk about the "top names" in doom dm... can you even name 5 without going through the topics here? You're literally just some scrub who comes in pretending to have astounding insights that lost relevancy a decade ago.

As far as my "insights" go, uh I mean it's not like I've made or tested any relevant multiplayer packs in the last few years, or guided people on making such projects. I definitely have 0 multiplayer experience or knowledge, no qualifying aspects to pick up on. I'm also definitely an unknown player with 0 input to provide. It's too bad I can't link any threads and say "Here's an old post I made on the matter"

Decay said:

There is no further "insight" on the matter. "Camouflage" is bunk because of colour overriding.

That's actually the only noteworthy thing you said, though I'm not sure if it's allowed on current ZDaemon, which, by your own admission, you wouldn't touch with a 10-foot cattle prod, so no point in asking you anything more on the "Z" thing.

Decay said:

you talk about the "top names" in doom dm... can you even name 5 without going through the topics here?

As soon as you can quote where in this thread I did so. Are you sure you're not mixing me up with someone else? But anyway, I promise I'll be a good boy and won't edit anything while you're not looking :-)

Decay said:

You're literally just some scrub who comes in pretending to have astounding insights that lost relevancy a decade ago.

That's just priceless. I've been called (deservedly so, I admit) less of a sportsman on various occasions, but never a "scrub" based on hypothetical games I didn't even play in order to win or lose. Well, actually once I got a girl mad at me because the semi-furnished house she was about to rent had no bed sheets, which I should be aware of before I directed her to the real-estate agent. Did that make sense to you? Yup, neither did your rant to me. Must be some newfangled bullshit metaphysical approach to sportsman mentality...and stuff.

As for the rest of your achievements, frankly, I don't give a rat's ass. To quote a famous figure "making a weapon doesn't give you the power to use it". For all I know you could be the absolutely worst scrub when it comes to play the maps you made yourself, but even it were so it'd be completely irrelevant.

Decay said:

I definitely have 0 multiplayer experience or knowledge, no qualifying aspects to pick up on. I'm also definitely an unknown player with 0 input to provide. It's too bad I can't link any threads and say "Here's an old post I made on the matter"

For those points I gladly give you the benefit of the doubt. But you certainly have 0 experience telling when you're losing an argument and grasping at straws, I can tell you that.

The weirdest part of it all is your apparent fixation with my custom title's implied "superpower" of quoting old posts. Seriously dude, if you're a fan/wannabe, just open your heart to me and tell me. If you're a hater, well, do it just the same. Ain't no good to keep it inside. Let the Love/Hate flow, and Heal. Let it all out. Love and Hate, sometimes the same... <3

Decay said:

It's too bad I can't link any threads and say "Here's an old post I made on the matter"

It's too bad I can't pat you on the back and let you cry on my shoulder. Damn you melted this old grumpy fart's heart :'(

Maes said:

Some shit

Easy game, easy life! GG!

Well, I can't say I didn't enjoy it. GG indeed ;-)

Edit: Hey mods, isn't this the weirdest thread ever on DW or what?

I think it's a rather typical thread for a DM discussion actually. The multiplayer community seems to have very different understanding of concepts such as decency. In particular, most of the time respect is based on your skill alone, not on your qualities as a person. A n00b will always be a n00b no matter how nice he is, while a pr0 is almost obligated to talk in a rude condescending tone. And if you want to have a real discussion with them, you first have to prove that you're "worthy". I've seen this mentality so many times in online games. Of course there are exceptions too, in particular the smaller communities are overall more friendly I think because everyone knows and values each other, and nobody wants to lose you due to some petty drama.

Yes, I'm aware of that mentality, but in this instance it is nearly incomprehensible and mixed with much less thinly veiled, unrelated resentment at a personal level. In any case, it's a real problem when trying to discuss certain aspects of the game.

Just wanted to say this thread is hilarious. There's a variant marine skin by Enjay that turns doomguy's boots and knee pads and such green, meaning the colour is more suitable for camouflage, but it still honestly doesn't work at all. I even play the occasional Choco Doom DM just for the hell of it, and even there, "colour camo" is not viable at all.

Then I guess a better question would be: assuming that camouflage was possible/effective in certain scenarios (the right kind of lighting, map architecture, type of battles etc.) and that you, as a seasoned DM player, got bagged a few times as a result of not recognizing the threat immediately, how would you feel about it and the guy that pulled it, as soon are you realized what he had done?

I mean, would you think something along the lines of "Very clever...I might add it to my repertoire" or just "Fucking camper! But now I'll get him to move..."?

A much more extreme version of that was in the bonus Deathmatch levels in LA: Archie Invasion. Since the available player skins could vary considerably in size (there was a Mechwarrior skin, as well a Lemmings skin, just a few pxs tall), having to play a DM level right after a regular invasion level would obviously give an undue advantage/disadvantage to those having small/large skins accordingly.

And yes, ZDaemon does have a client-side CVAR override (zd_overridecolors), but AFAIK it doesn't affect skins, which may be predominantly of one (non-variable) color, or undue size. Ofc, the latter is mostly a problem of whoever packaged the WAD in question....

Maes said:

Then I guess a better question would be: assuming that camouflage was possible/effective in certain scenarios (the right kind of lighting, map architecture, type of battles etc.) and that you, as a seasoned DM player, got bagged a few times as a result of not recognizing the threat immediately, how would you feel about it and the guy that pulled it, as soon are you realized what he had done?

I mean, would you think something along the lines of "Very clever...I might add it to my repertoire" or just "Fucking camper! But now I'll get him to move..."?

That's a very fair and tough question and I bet many people will do their best to answer it, after it is relocated to a better suited section: the fanfiction subforum.

Maes said:

A much more extreme version of that was in the bonus Deathmatch levels in LA: Archie Invasion. Since the available player skins could vary considerably in size (there was a Mechwarrior skin, as well a Lemmings skin, just a few pxs tall), having to play a DM level right after a regular invasion level would obviously give an undue advantage/disadvantage to those having small/large skins accordingly.

First of all, you have only yourself to blame for doing any deathmatching activity on Flunky's wads. His are some of the worst DM maps I've ever encountered. Bucket creates better stuff with his rear end after a chicken vindaloo and strawberry smoothies party. Just mapvote to skip that garbage and go back to chasing keycards in hollow dungeons.

Maes said:

And yes, ZDaemon does have a client-side CVAR override (zd_overridecolors), but AFAIK it doesn't affect skins, which may be predominantly of one (non-variable) color, or undue size. Ofc, the latter is mostly a problem of whoever packaged the WAD in question....

zd_useskins

dew said:

First of all, you have only yourself to blame for doing any deathmatching activity on Flunky's wads.

Huh....whatever, dude. I (and a couple dozens other players) were only trying to play a bunch of Archie Invasion maps. Granted, they try to throw in some original (?) ideas (in the form of "bonus maps", that might be Lost World or Platform Terror maps or ZDaemon minigames), but the DM idea was really meh. No need to vote though, they actually last much less than any of the others.

As for the rest, OK, obviously the topic isn't popular and the premise behind it may be flawed, but usually such topics simply result in CRICKETS.WAV. What we got here was more like FUCKING_HOSTILE.WAV, so there's something else at stake. Not my problem, though.

Truthfully, dew is right. No semi-experienced player is going to miss a "camouflaged" player. Most people play with higher than default gamma which makes these sprites stand out even in low light conditions. Furthermore, I don't think I've heard anyone that is decent complain about someone camping in over a decade. Under typical conditions in any of the online ports, it will not be an effective tactic.

Tell that to Brit10 BFG spammers zoners ;-) I guess that in such cases the collective behaviour of the other players also matters a lot (e.g. to single out the camper/spammer for punishment until he gets the message, or controlling their respawning to deprive him of easy targets). Fonze actually hinted at such a game/self-regulating behaviour, and also mentioned how fragile it can be unless everybody thinks alike. Now that would merit its own topic...DM sportsmanship/code of honour or somesuch.

But in most cases, they don't, so it's just easy XP points for those who choose the easy route. And at the end of the day, a frag is a frag and a win is a win, no use complaining about it.

I've definitely found myself being the only one attempting to stop a camper on brit10 many many times. It's frustrating, but also funny and unsurprising when the other players continue unknowingly defending the camper by preventing anyone from lobbing rockets in. I think we all know the brit10 map this is the worst on: The green brick map with grass and a teleporter that leads you to an easily campable woodmet BFG/SSG cubby, the one with the Master of Puppets MIDI. What a pain that map can be in FFA!

Stop playing Brit FFA, there are other WADs

Be the change you want to see in the world

Yeah, guys please let's all go back to 2DMMAPS, that was the shit. :D Seriously, I loved it so much in childhood. That chaingun man.