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Blastfrog

Freedoom should be limit removing

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I feel that limit removing would be a better target. This would allow Freedoom to have larger and more complex levels and would be far more inviting of new mappers to join, not to mention it will be easier to retain any good levels as well as adopting existing PWAD maps.

This would allow the project to thrive, while still being compatible with almost every port under the sun, excluding niche or irrelevant ancient ports that do not raise the rendering limits. Not to disrespect those ports, but most typical end users (especially including average users that are not even a part of the community) aren't likely to be using or relying only on non limit removing ports.

Boom excludes many more ports with partial or no Boom support.

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Blastfrog said:

Boom excludes many more ports with partial or no Boom support.


Ports that barely anyone uses. Let's be real here, PRBoom+ and G/ZDoom/Zandro are what most people play with. And PRBoom+ is mainly there for demo recording purposes and mostly popular for that reason. Everything else is niche stuff for purists and hipsters who enjoy their giant pixels and bugs labelled as features. Freedoom should be PRBoom+ compatible, which is what Boom currently means. That way there's no need to screw with the existing maps and butcher them to an inferior standard.

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Blastfrog said:

Boom excludes many more ports with partial or no Boom support.

Many? Choco, Crispy, and Doomsday, that's it. And even then, Doomsday is planning on full Boom support eventually.

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This is a good idea. It supports the vanilla goal.

IIRC, fraggle once said in the past this would be a good idea for the vanilla goal also.

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Voros said:

It supports the vanilla goal.

No it doesn't.

Limit removing maps can cause visplane overflows (and other problems) in vanilla.

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I know that. What I'm saying is that it'll be easier to vanillafy if it's already in vanilla format.

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Blastfrog said:

Freedom should be limit removing

I suppose freedom could be defined as being without limits, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this project

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fabian said:

Quite obviously, I agree.

I just re-read the thread announcing the switch to vanilla, where you said "Yay!" about the decision.

I guess you changed your mind, eh?

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From what I've played, it feels like it already went in a different direction. I still think it should be added, because
-enhanced
-vanilla
-skill levels
-exitable

And if you or anyone wishes to work on it again, then sure. At least this version should get in Freedoom.

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I feel like that revised MAP08 would be good as MAP03, and the current MAP06 could become MAP04 (with adjustments to be easier).

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i prefer a idea of map based on skill, is possible to cause lot of tricks in game only by using linedefs trick + a random monster.

maybe make like quake in hard skill open extra areas whit monetrs and ammo.

it help players get curious about getting into high skills.

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Blastfrog said:

I feel like that revised MAP08 would be good as MAP03

What? This map is fine in slot 8. It's pretty hard for it to be a map03 IMO

Blastfrog said:

the current MAP06 could become MAP04 (with adjustments to be easier).

Take a look at the Nex Credo thread. I made a WAD that replaces various levels, including map06, with Nex Credo ones.

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Voros said:

From what I've played, it feels like it already went in a different direction. I still think it should be added, because
-enhanced
-vanilla
-skill levels
-exitable

I suggest you PM boris, it is his map so whatever happens to it is his decision.

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Voros said:

^already done, but I'm not sure how active he is. It might stay in limbo.

Now that you mention it, there's a suprising amount of contributions that are in limbo, such as uric's arch vile.

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urric's archvile is unfinished

i talked with him earlier this year and he said he was fine with me finishing it, but he wanted to try and get as much of it done himself first. i have not been able to contact him since then

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raymoohawk said:

urric's archvile is unfinished

i talked with him earlier this year and he said he was fine with me finishing it, but he wanted to try and get as much of it done himself first. i have not been able to contact him since then

I'm aware of it being unfinished, that's what I meant by "in limbo".
Also do you know what happened to those spider demon sprites? They were pretty good but needed to be cleaned up.

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I'd certainly support this - at the very least as an interim goal. If the goal of moving to vanilla compatibility is to make Freedoom usable with as many source ports then a move to limit removing should at least partially achieve that goal (as it makes it usable with ports like eg. Doomsday). If you look at it from that perspective, a completed port of all levels to be limit-removing is more useful than an incomplete move to vanilla.

Making levels vanilla-compatible is very difficult and a huge part of that difficulty comes from the restrictive limits. We should recognize that this vanilla move is a large project and that with a project like this it's helpful to divide it up into achievable milestones.

Blastfrog said:

This would allow the project to thrive, while still being compatible with almost every port under the sun, excluding niche or irrelevant ancient ports that do not raise the rendering limits. Not to disrespect those ports, but most typical end users (especially including average users that are not even a part of the community) aren't likely to be using or relying only on non limit removing ports.

I think I know which ports you're referring to and I mostly agree with you. In the case of Chocolate Doom it's nice to at least have FreeDM as vanilla-compatible to allow Chocolate Doom to live in Debian main. Beyond that I've never pushed for the main Freedoom single player IWADs to be vanilla-compatible as well. It would be nice I guess. But most people using Chocolate Doom are likely doing so because they want an authentic retro experience of what Doom was like in the 90s, so Freedoom doesn't exactly fit that.

So in summary: whatever your opinion about what the end state of Freedoom should look like, limit-removing looks like a sensible target for the short-term.

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uhbooh said:

I'm aware of it being unfinished, that's what I meant by "in limbo".
Also do you know what happened to those spider demon sprites? They were pretty good but needed to be cleaned up.


what spider demon sprites?

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The Urric Flame Bringer was NEVER finished, so it was really a concept, not a submission (but a damn good concept).

The Large Technospider doesn't have complete death animation. Ask wesleyjohnson about it.
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1430431

Also what I meant "in limbo" is that perfectly good submissions, ready to be added, never gets added eg Blueworrior's music and Aquatex didn't go in for some time.

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are those the ones you meant ubboah? wesley refused to redo the death animation. i got arborix to sketch a new one, but i never tried to work on it because i was under the impression the design had not been well received

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Thats the only cleaned up LT available. Of course that's what he meant.

I think you should first finish the current monster you're doing now (the Pestmeister i think).

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i was not planning on working on the large techno spider, but even with a proper death animation, the whole sheet would need to be edited so it doesnt look like a straight render

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raymoohawk said:

are those the ones you meant ubboah? wesley refused to redo the death animation. i got arborix to sketch a new one, but i never tried to work on it because i was under the impression the design had not been well received

Yeah that's the one, I dont remember the design getting a negative reception though. If you don't like it then you don't have to work on it and we can use the octopus thing.

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raymoohawk said:

The whole sheet would need to be edited so it doesnt look like a straight render

This. I would prefer to see the LT have this hand drawn quality like raymoohawk's sprites, because the LT sprites look awkward among the the other sprites IMO

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