What type of secret levels do you prefer?

When you reach ExM9/MAP31/MAP32, what kind of secret levels do you prefer to play? Long journeys? Strange journeys? Levels that hark back to other levels? Maps that feel like an unreleased album track? Maps that were too poor/subpar for the main set? I'm curious since most people always expect the secret levels to be "different" from the main set, but I'm wondering in what way.

I want secret levels to be fun. I don't want them to be very difficult however, unless the difficulty is optional. Basically if you went through all the trouble to find it, a secret level should reward you with something such as supplies or fun design.

i enjoy strange secret levels. one example could be map 31 of interception, or alien vendetta.

and of course, i enjoy levels that make good use of monster spawners. not necessary IoS fights, either.

Secret levels should be something surprising, and still part of the theme, to the player eg E3M9.

I love total curveballs or easter eggs, personally. Nothing better than a little 4th wall breaking reward for your thorough playing.

To me, it's just anything that is out of the ordinary or unusual for the wad and its themes (type of gameplay, visuals, etc.) as a whole.

Yea, I prefer funny maps. Not too serious or difficult. Preferably a homage to some other classic game.

Unique and not entirely serious theme and gameplay style, difficulty similar to the difficulty of normal maps in the wad.

They should somehow fit in with the rest of a mod, but definitely be a bit off, be it by taking a fun approach or something you do not see that frequently.

That said, what I do not want to see in secret levels is a complete departure of the rest of the mod, some recent particularly bad secret maps were the first one in Valiant (the cyberspace map with its 1000+ monsters) and BTSX Ep.2 which was just a shitty slaughtermap. The first one was just a visual abomination with a gameplay so bad it defies belief and the second one just went completely against the gameplay style in the rest of the mod by making it *TOO* hard. The first BTSX struck a good balance by using larger monsters but not overdoing it to the point of becoming tedious.

The novelty shouldn't be the only attraction - that's the most important thing I think. If you're remaking a level from another game, make sure that it will excite even a person that isn't familiar with the said game. If your "one color per area" level would be forgettable with a more traditional texturing approach, then it probably isn't that special to begin with.

The idea that a secret level has to "reward" the player is perhaps kinda outdated at this point. Most people will probably warp to it whether they found the secret exit or not.

One of the worst secret map types is a sudden slaughter level in an otherwise "normal" megawad. Totally agree with Graf here.

It can totally be just a solid regular map that could have appeared in any other slot.

I thought while playing KDIZD that overly complex secret exits are sorta depressing to uncover (and not so complex ones are pointless), and other WADs made me think that it's also a bit disappointing when you see that the map has more than 10 secrets and then realize that it's only because of a secret exit, so I can't say that secret levels are really appealing to me at all. Just very large secret areas with monsters and such are more interesting to me somehow, probably because they focus more on being surprising to find.

And if a map wants to stand out, it will do much better in that respect if it's a normal map, as opposed to secret maps where you always expect a gimmick, even if you don't know what it will be.

For one thing, the secret map shouldn't be just another map in the wad/episode, as if it was interchangeable. It should be different and interesting. Depending on the wad theme, it could be more challenging or funny or have some easter eggs or whatever. Another good idea for a secret map is to get access to a weapon or inventory item that either is only available much later on, or not available at all (extra ammo would be in secret areas in subsequent maps). Or it could make solving a puzzle in a future map much easier.

Examples of good secret maps: AV map 31, E3M9, Sacred Grove in Hexen.

By the way, if I'm playing AV using AEoD, when I get to that secret map, for fun, I try to only use the same colored weapons as the current color theme (i.e. blue weapons in the blue section, etc.)

Dgemie said:

overly complex secret exits are sorta depressing to uncover

Yeah, it feels like the author really really doesn't want you to find it.

Also nowadays it's like you always have to explore the whole map if you want to find the secret exit. God forbid if you don't see some area the author spend time on!

good ones

Seriously though, the idea of a secret map should be a reward for finding it in some fashion, it really shouldn't be "just another map" because you felt compelled to conform to the 9-map episode format or whatever.

some recent particularly bad secret maps were the first one in Valiant (the cyberspace map with its 1000+ monsters) and BTSX Ep.2 which was just a shitty slaughtermap. The first one was just a visual abomination with a gameplay so bad it defies belief and the second one just went completely against the gameplay style in the rest of the mod by making it *TOO* hard.

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If it's anything to go by, my favorite IWAD secret levels are from TNT. Pharaoh and and Caribbean manage to keep the player entertained with their bizarre yet coherent settings: I especially like the "docking" effect in the latter. I still like Fortress of Mystery as well, perhaps because it forces upon the player the concept of infighting. (That was pretty novel at the time!)

In general I agree that the secret level should be a reward, something that the player will thoroughly digest with awe and wonder. Dare I say it can be used as a place to test out nonstandard, even goofy ideas! It's not like a mapset is considered ruined because it had a terrible secret level.

Graf Zahl said:

They should somehow fit in with the rest of a mod, but definitely be a bit off, be it by taking a fun approach or something you do not see that frequently.

That said, what I do not want to see in secret levels is a complete departure of the rest of the mod, some recent particularly bad secret maps were the first one in Valiant (the cyberspace map with its 1000+ monsters) and BTSX Ep.2 which was just a shitty slaughtermap. The first one was just a visual abomination with a gameplay so bad it defies belief and the second one just went completely against the gameplay style in the rest of the mod by making it *TOO* hard. The first BTSX struck a good balance by using larger monsters but not overdoing it to the point of becoming tedious.

Haha. Can't please everyone, I suppose! We put a ton of work into Fireking and I'd probably consider it one of my favorite levels in BTSX :)

I'm personally a big fan of having slaughtermaps as secret maps, with Valiant and BTSX E2 being probably the best examples of this. Fireking is also one of my favourite BTSX maps!

I'm not picky though. IMO, secret maps just need to be something different from the main set, and they need to be fun or have an interesting concept :)

Guest-author maps always make for a great secret map. The different style of other authors could provide plenty enough variety to please the ones who prefer that.

Rayzik said:

Guest-author maps always make for a great secret map. The different style of other authors could provide plenty enough variety to please the ones who prefer that.

I kinda hate secret maps, myself. This is probably the best answer though.

Graf Zahl said:

They should somehow fit in with the rest of a mod, but definitely be a bit off, be it by taking a fun approach or something you do not see that frequently.

That said, what I do not want to see in secret levels is a complete departure of the rest of the mod

sometimes i actually enjoy maps that depart from the rest of the mod. really strange maps can be good if done right IMO.

I like Fireking and I enjoy the efforts of Joshy, Essel and Dew to make it a tough but not insanely sloggy map. That being said I 100% agree with Graf that the mantra of secret maps being slaughter maps needs to die in a ditch off the side of the road. I prefer short gimmicky as hell maps for my secret maps.

In megawads with unified themes, secret levels nearly always feel inharmonious with the primary set to me. I liked Valiant map31 because the theme, though different from the main themes, was concordant with it at the same time, mixing well with e1, e3, and e5. I wasn't such a fan of map32 for this reason. I can say the same thing about Ancient Aliens -- map31's particular use of tech assets wasn't so alien in comparison to the tech themes used in the main set, but map32 felt like a bonus level that it just felt wrong to be able to access through progression. I feel the same way about Sunlust map31, which has a certain kinship with map08, and Sunlust map32, where the primary textures aren't quite like anything else thematically. This seems to be a pattern, actually; I like SoD map31 but not Sod map32, I suppose largely because I dislike AV map32. Although I do like Resurgence map32. I guess I'd prefer it if secret maps don't try too hard to be a lot different than the main maps.

Community projects are naturally understood to be grab bags, so a lot more goes here. The same is true of mapsets where the secret level can't be reached from the main levels. In Doom I episodes, I prefer maps that are thematically related to the primary episode, with a somewhat different design scheme, and that offer lots of reward for continuous play. Return to Hadron e2 had a good example of this -- it's quite easy to finish with 200% H/A if you are so inclined. I liked the secret map in Espi's Back to Basics too, the marble structures in the void. I guess I'm more amenable to Doom I secret maps in general, because it's so much easier for them to feel like they are part of the natural progression.

On the subject of secret slaughtermaps that come out of nowhere, I'm not really a fan of that convention -- no self-respecting megawad should have only one slaughtermap.

I think the secret levels should at least be on the level of the ones in the IWADS (except e4m9 wtf was that) as the minimum surprise. If I could just take 31 or 32 and slap it in the middle of the pack and nobody would notice, it's not being secret enough. I get mad when a secret level isn't special, wtf was the point of making it secret. People make 32 map wads all the time instead of 30 because they conform to a standard, follow it better.

Also I welcome 31+32 being the hardest maps in the wad because I'm not garbage at the game after ~20 years of playing and actually know that skill levels exist (the only skill level is UV right? UV-fast?).

edit: yes i expect this too in dm wads with 32 maps

As far as conventional practice goes, I think the best usage of the secret mapslots is to aim for something high-concept in a thematic/setting sense, something to make the player feel as though they've uncovered something long lost within the context of the greater set's diegesis, as opposed to something totally out of left field. Perhaps the fullest dedication to this idea might be to devote game assets to creating unique enemies or the like not seen anywhere else, but of course this is usually logistically inconvenient and so very seldom seen--most players will be satisfied by a suitable new theme alone, I think.. The notion that these unique settings also need to be combined with high-concept or outlier-type gameplay is something of a double-edged sword, I think; maps of these types often have more niche or mood-specific appeal, and going too heavy on gimmickry (in which case a massive departure in gameplay style might be termed a 'gimmick') can leave the side-trip feeling variously trite or laborious, depending on length. Assuming two secret slots in a Doom II megaWAD, I reckon it's often effective to have one of the two play more conventionally, and the other be more conceptual or outlying; for example, m31 might be a moody but mostly quiet atmospheric puzzle map, the reward for fully solving it being a trip to m32, which could be a big, grandiose, but mostly sloppy and fun battle royale.

An equally strong but much more seldom seen approach to the 'secret' slots is simply not to treat them as secrets, but rather as an opportunity to add an additional 1-2 maps to the standard level progression, in line with the greater set's playstyle and theme/setting. Extending an episode or megaWAD in this way is something that few will resent if done right, I'd wager; no need to pay particular concern to high-concept play in this case, just make a quality map (or two) worthy of standing alongside the others, and the overall contribution to the set is just as significant as that of the more traditional secret/oddball conventions.

What do I NOT like to see in a secret map? Well, in short, at this point I've seen enough nudge-nudge-wink-wink IWAD homagery, and homagery to other games, to last me 'til the end of time. Putting something in a secret slot to essentially evoke a "Hey, I get that reference!" response or "Oh, I wonder how many monsters are crammed into E1M1 this time?" response seems a terrible waste that undercuts the effort spent on the player's part in finding them (incidentally, I disagree with the notion that making secret exits take involvement to find is overbearing on the mapper's part; if you're going to just hide it behind an obvious off-textured pushwall, might as well not have it be secret as far as I'm concerned). There is also the matter of layouts from other games often not synergizing very well with Doom's gameplay, presenting a more pressing mechanical problem with this trope, but that's another story, I suppose.

Demon of the Well said:

An equally strong but much more seldom seen approach to the 'secret' slots is simply not to treat them as secrets, but rather as an opportunity to add an additional 1-2 maps to the standard level progression, in line with the greater set's playstyle and theme/setting. Extending an episode or megaWAD in this way is something that few will resent if done right, I'd wager; no need to pay particular concern to high-concept play in this case, just make a quality map (or two) worthy of standing alongside the others, and the overall contribution to the set is just as significant as that of the more traditional secret/oddball conventions.

That reminds me of a very old idea I once had for a vanilla wad (never implemented though), which goes like this:

You're playing through a megawad and you reach map 14. Map 14 will have three exits, but none of them would be secret. They would simply be a choice the player has to make. One exit goes to map 15, one goes to map 31, and one goes to map 32. Each of the three maps would represent a route through a massive complex (i.e. one going through sewers, another being a rooftop map, and maybe a laboratory or something), and they would all converge back to map 16, where you would continue like normal.

Or better yet, only one exit of those three is open, and which one would be determined by the difficulty you're playing. The other two are blocked off by decorations or whatever.

I like theme shifts and maps that are quite chill, almost like some kind of nice getaway from the possible hardcore shit you would later face.

Riptide (NOVA: The Birth MAP32) is one of my all favorites because of how it feels, looks and plays in contrast to the ghoulish evil that was MAP31.

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When I myself went to make the MAP31 for that mapset I did, I took old concepts that were scrapped from other ideas I had for secret/normal maps; an entire Wolf 3D map I once made for one part (which got remade in that level, square by square), several chunks of failed standalone maps for the next part (that gave the map "90's Nightmare" as its name due to it being a fucking mess) and the only single surviving room layout I had from my first and last attempt at a hell slaughter map level as another (it was bad, very bad).

I feel as though MAP31's or 32's would be a great place to stitch together old rejects as a way of showing your creative process, it is like a cut content showcase (and potentially could just be used as one).

Ichor said:

That reminds me of a very old idea I once had for a vanilla wad (never implemented though), which goes like this:

You're playing through a megawad and you reach map 14. Map 14 will have three exits, but none of them would be secret. They would simply be a choice the player has to make. One exit goes to map 15, one goes to map 31, and one goes to map 32. Each of the three maps would represent a route through a massive complex (i.e. one going through sewers, another being a rooftop map, and maybe a laboratory or something), and they would all converge back to map 16, where you would continue like normal.

Or better yet, only one exit of those three is open, and which one would be determined by the difficulty you're playing. The other two are blocked off by decorations or whatever.

Unless I read this wrong you can't do that in Vanilla. All the exits would go to MAP19

In Hadephobia MAP15 has two choices - MAP16 or MAP31. Then 31 either takes you back to the last area in 15 so you go to 16 next or has a second path to 32 that exits in the regular area in 15 also.

Ziggurat Vertigo from Quake is my favorite secret level, for it's one simple change that completely alters how the level plays.

I'm actually not opposed to super slaughter secret maps (like FireKing's), though I can understand why certain people don't like that. At least in Doom, there's more ways to approach gameplay than non-FPS games (say Super Mario World and its horrendous map "Tubular".)

Batman Doom MAP31 is probably my favourite secret level. Just completely weird.