The Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 which maps would you say is the most difficult

The question is what maps do people consider the most difficult out of the two games? Personally the maps I have struggled on the most are E4 M1 and E4 M2 on The Ultimate Doom since on Ultraviolence and Nightmare E4 M1 has no health kits just the vials that give you 1 hp each and there is very little ammo so your run has to be basically flawless since the smallest mistake can mean death or it means your starting E4 M2 on low health and ammo to which you could get easily slaughtered at the start. On my end I have to reset complete runs on E4 M1 since my health is just too low. So what are your thoughts people what levels have you found the most chalenging.

Plutonia is technically Doom 2, so Plutonia is the most difficult.

That is fair however I have not learned the layouts for all of the levels on that game to try a nightmare run so i don't know how much suffering it causes just yet :D (since I did not have the plutonia experiment until about 7/8 years ago as I could not afford to get it when it came out)

Definitely E4M1 UV, although the medikits at the start of E4M2 give a certain amount of wiggle-room for finishing health; anything above 50% is to me a 'good' run; especially if keeping the cacos at bay at the start of M2 works out; shotgunners are easily dispatched without a scratch and the rest is just easily-avoidable projectiles.

Not counting Plutonia, because that's not Doom 2 as much as it is Final Doom. /semantics

:P

I was gonna say on UV 50% is sort of the min health you want on nightmare I would say 60% to 70% minimum since the whole respawning enemies nonsense kinda fucks you up as on E4 M2 there is a wee bit of backtracking you have to do.

From experience in watching many streams of new doom players the hardest maps in Doom 1 are early Episode 3 where players get ammo fucked badly If they miss out on key pickups. E4M1 and E4M2 for reasons stated above.

Doom 2: The suburbs for the random revenants strolling around and the large fight by the blue key. Downtown just grinds out players through turrets and odd progression that confuses the hell out of players.

The most consistently difficult map in all the IWAD's to my knowledge is Speed in the plutonia experiment. Seen players take anywhere from 30 minutes - 2 hours stuck on this monstrosity of a map. It's easy to bleed out on your important weapons, fights are no joke and the final room requires proper play or else the arch-viles, chaingunners and revenants will chip you out over and over.

Second most difficult map in the IWAD's? Mount pain.

E4M1/M2 when trying to play for 100%. I really have no idea what id was thinking here pulling such a stunt in the first map of an episode and adding such an unhealthy secret.

The fun thing is, if that secret is converted into a genuine bonus, both maps play a lot better.

Ultimate Doom: E4M6, because of running through lava in a confusing environment.
Doom 2: MAP19, because of finding a way to the keys that unlock the exit.

Udoom : E4M6, mandatory damaging floors and tight cyberdemon battle over the damaging floors.
Doom 2 : MAP09, I'd give the honor to MAP10 or MAP28, but MAP09 doesn't have invulnerability spheres which makes it mighty harder.
Plutonia : Definetly MAP32, 'nuff said.
TNT : Obviously MAP27.

The hardest is TNT's MAP27 because there's no hefty BFG to get you through, there are a couple of invulnerability spheres, but they're set at a relatively easy place which makes them somewhat insignificant.

In my opinion Perfect Hatred was the most difficult in The Ultimate Doom, now for Doom 2 I'd maybe pick Icon of Sin, I had a lot of problems in that level trying to figure out how to kill it.

E4m1 is the only doom map I've found genuinely difficult. E3m8 on a pistol start was tricky too.
Map 08 - Tricks and Traps was a pain in the ass, pistol start wise. As was map 24.

Many of the maps can be surprisingly difficult if you speed run with a pistol start on the UV setting. I was recently playing E1M6 this way, because I wanted to remember all the nooks and crannies for a map I'm creating which is based on it. I was dying a LOT, despite my decades of experience, because every time I had played that level previously, it hadn't been on a pistol start!

I always struggle a bit with E4M1 and M2 myself. Brutal start and in general I sometimes have a tougher time with Doom over Doom 2, since Doom's design is more claustrophobic.

Doom 2 is really lopsided for me and not that hard on UV, but there are a few tricky portions. I would say probably the hellish outpost section, M7-M11. The city levels are a lot easier for me because of all the space you get in the bigger open levels, with a few exceptions. Maybe some tricky levels near the end but in general... Doom 2 UV isn't too tough for me.

TNT isn't too bad, but Plutonia Chaingunner Haven is a different story for me.

e4m2
map09

Ultimate Doom: E4M2, though E4M1 on UV is impossible for me

Doom 2: Map09, no other map really comes close. It has an insane concentration of monsters.

E4M2 is always the one that gives me some headhaches.
Small arsenal with so many monsters roaming around, specially and the start of the map.
The others don't usually give me that much trouble.

Am I the only one who finds e4m2 not difficult? I've never found it that hard.

Did you play it on UV from pistol start?

Is the question the most difficult when playing, or most difficult from a pistol start?

scifista42 said:

Did you play it on UV from pistol start?

Yes. I've finished runs with a pistol start on every level.

Hmmm hardest pistol start E4 M1 M2 and M6 i have found the hardest for pistol start but at least with a pistol start on E4 M2 you start with full HP unlike most of the runs that I carry over from E4 M1.Btw there is another reason I have stated E4 M1 on Ultimate Doom as my hardest is because in nightmare it is literal suffering plus going 100% on that map on nightmare was one of the most frustrating and painful things I have subjected myself to it took me nearly a week (playing in 4 hour sittings since my patience would be broken if i played any longer than that). Btw that level alone has stopped me from playing nightmare after doing my 100% run since it was just misery. also if i don't mention Doom 2 much it is because i have played Ultimate Doom alot more and prefered it in terms of level design and a few other things (cough cough fuck archviles and the horse they rode in on) So I have yet to do a nightmare run on doom 2 but I have done UV as that is my standard difficulty and i still need to do a 100% UV and Nightmare run which will be "really fun".

joe-ilya said:

Udoom : E4M6, mandatory damaging floors and tight cyberdemon battle over the damaging floors.
Doom 2 : MAP09, I'd give the honor to MAP10 or MAP28, but MAP09 doesn't have invulnerability spheres which makes it mighty harder.
Plutonia : Definetly MAP32, 'nuff said.
TNT : Obviously MAP27.

The hardest is TNT's MAP27 because there's no hefty BFG to get you through, there are a couple of invulnerability spheres, but they're set at a relatively easy place which makes them somewhat insignificant.

The comment on E4 m6 is really good call since it is a bastard fighting the cyberdemon and the design of that level is so cruel in terms of moving around the map without losing large portions of your health to the damage floors.

E4M6 is the hardest for only because of its BS. E4M2 is also hard but more enjoyable than E4M6.

Heretic's e4m1 and e5m1 should be on the list :p.

scifista42 said:

Did you play it on UV from pistol start?

The most difficult part about it by far is the beginning because you're placed into a horde of monsters with pretty much no cover. Once you clear that out, however, the level becomes more manageable. The Cyberdemon would be a challenge if not for the convenient telefragging option that allows you to simply turn around the second you enter his lair.

E4M2 is the only map in Ultimate Doom I have thus far been unable to beat without save states on UV. E4M1 is at least short enough to scrape through. I can't imagine doing it from a pistol start, since I find myself completely relying on the rocket launcher to help with the Cacodemons at the beginning.

It's grabbing the yellow key and plasma around the Baron that I can't get consistently. The section right afterward with the Lost Souls and two Barons on a small platform is another spot that can easily kill you. Just way too many things that have to go exactly right.

E4M6 is also quite hard, but at least there's a reliable way through once you know to go for the Invulnerability before warping to the Cyberdemon. It isn't too hard to come up with a system/order for getting through it, even if things can still go wrong. I don't think it's particularly fun, but it's doable.

This is making it sound like I hate Episode 4, but I really don't. It's probably my second favorite set of levels in Ultimate Doom, and I find them all really fun on Hurt Me Plenty, even though I feel bad about lowering the difficulty.

I guess I'm right. I'm the only one who finds e4m2 not difficult. Even on a pistol start on UV.
Suck it down Romero! You're my bitch now!

nxGangrel said:

I guess I'm right. I'm the only one who finds e4m2 not difficult. Even on a pistol start on UV.
Suck it down Romero! You're my bitch now!

How do you deal with the Cacodemons at the start? Do you still bother killing them all along with the Imps?

Also, is there some sort of trick to grabbing the yellow key consistently without being torn apart by the Baron I've just never gotten? If there's a way to make the ammo last through the early parts of the level and get past that bit consistently, I could see doing it in one go from a pistol start. I'm usually coming in with limited ammo apart from a handful of useful rockets anyway.

I can beat E4M2 UV from a Pistol Start without much issue but I'm usually using (G)ZDoom so I have the benefit of WADS + Mouse Aim so I'm not sure it's a fair testimony of the map's intended difficulty.

Cipher said:

How do you deal with the Cacodemons at the start? Do you still bother killing them all along with the Imps?

Also, is there some sort of trick to grabbing the yellow key consistently without being torn apart by the Baron I've just never gotten? If there's a way to make the ammo last through the early parts of the level and get past that bit consistently, I could see doing it in one go from a pistol start. I'm usually coming in with limited ammo apart from a handful of useful rockets anyway.

Alright, well I will admit I cheese my way through the level a little bit.
Here's my tactic for every playthrough of the beginning (so feel free to take notes for an easier experience)

First I grab the shotgun behind the starting point and I position myself to the side of the left shotgun sergeant to where I can hit both of them, which typically kills both of them in one shot but it doesn't always work, yet they can't see me. This minimizes the chance of getting shot.

After that, I snipe the imps on the other side, and wait for the cacodemons then snipe them. If I run out of ammo I use my pistol. Once the Caco's get too close, and I'm low or out of shells, I drop to the lava pit, pick up the rad suit and go through the lava steps to get back to the top and get the ammo there to finish them off.

I go over the ledges, or whatever they are called, and though the window I clear out the room with the barons and sergeants. When I get the yellow key, I quickly grab the plasma rifle and run back to that room with the teleporter that I had cleared out from the window. I sit by the door way to the Yellow key room and stand there and take barons out. I typically use the chaingun then the shotgun to save ammo for the PR, but also because I can't tell if I'm hitting them or the wall when using the PR. Once I kill all of them, I re-enter the room, kill the YK baron, grab the key, then that's about it. The rest is elementary.