Reinstate the cat!

I propose that we reinstate the cat I made that replaced Commander Keen that was in turn replaced with a Zam that could be freed from a cage.

My reasoning is that any usage in a PWAD run with id's Doom 2 IWAD that didn't replace it with something else is just as farcical as the base game. In fact, they may rely on it for its joke factor, an obvious example being jokewads.

This is purely subjective, and I admit that I am biased here, but I never much liked the concept of Zams in Freedoom.

Just to note, the gibbing cat is not meant to be offensive, it's just another cutsey thing in lieu of Keen with the same thing happening to him.

I think the zam looks good, and has good animation.

Blastfrog said:

My reasoning is that any usage in a PWAD run with id's Doom 2 IWAD that didn't replace it with something else is just as farcical as the base game. In fact, they may rely on it for its joke factor, an obvious example being jokewads.

Counterexample: their use in JPCP, for instance, is not especially jokewady.

I dunno... I actually like cats.

How about something more neutral, that almost everyone has thought of shooting at one point or another, like instant ramen? Or cigarettes?

I think the current thing is OK, although it doesn't seem humorous in the least bit. I don't really even know what it is. Even the term "Zam" means nothing to me.

edit: 0.11 is a yuge improvement over 0.10.1, BTW. Thanks for that.

I like that fat thing, especially the way it hits the ground. Gives me a good laugh.

The current one has good quality graphics, but it blends too well. It looks too much like a standard Freedoom decoration and doesn't have the same effect as the hanging commander Keen has in Doom, which is more out of place and comical.

Since this is a FOSS project, what about using the character from xbill?

I always wanted beastie. He would be in a cage and freed when player shoots him down. Very much like how the zam works. "Beastie, is the generic mascot of BSD operating systems." Freedoom and Beastie share the same, if not extremely similar BSD license. A perfect mascot to rescue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

Ferk said:

The current one has good quality graphics, but it blends too well. It looks too much like a standard Freedoom decoration and doesn't have the same effect as the hanging commander Keen has in Doom, which is more out of place and comical.

Thats why I like the zam. This is the rare zam that really fits as a freedoom item.

No way I will ever use Freedoom if you have to kill cats in it.

Memfis said:

No way I will ever use Freedoom if you have to kill cats in it.

Yeah, it may not be a good idea to irritate pet owners.

Not Even (Free)doom Music.

I'm using the hanging Keens in a nonfarcical context! =D
I'm turning them into a sortof easter egg hunt, find the hidden ones in each map.
TTYTT I was happy when I saw the new capsuled alien thingy, because it works well for this (not that it makes sense to kill baby alien jars in my game for any reason, but it works.)
I think things like this and BossBrain sprite shouldn't be thought of as joke sprites nobody will ever use. iD used them as a tool, and made them fit their purpose, which was the joke, but most mappers that have them available could use them for whatever they want, or may find a problem that they help solve. IMO they should be thematically consistent with the other sprites because you never know what someone else might like to do with them. They each use code that none of the other Actors use. I also use BossBrain for something completely nonfarcical, but I can get around to replacing Stallman's head later. XD
Although I should say for the most part I don't care what gets left in or out resource-wise as long as it makes its way to the Attic, and I always thought the cat was cute. I don't see the difference between that and shooting hundreds of dogs in Wolfenstein. It's okay because they're nazidogs? I still think the aliens make more sense.

Blastfrog said:

Just to note, the gibbing cat is not meant to be offensive, it's just another cutsey thing in lieu of Keen with the same thing happening to him.

Gibbing cats are not cute. Commander Keen was a fictional character, so no harm no foul. Cats are living things, and are well received by many people, including yourself Sodaholic. To have the image of cat tortured then killed into some gibbed meat is wrong, even if it's graphical. Why do you think Mark's Real Gore patch wasn't well received? Because it used real gore for the game. This cat gibbing is just as controversial.

No point in replacing a perfectly good asset unique to Freedoom for a dying cat if you ask me.

It was formerly just a cartoon cat. It wasn't bad, but I like the current thing better.

What if someone made a really good icon of sin? Stallman will never change, it is a symbolic easter egg. Beastie is also a perfect symbolic easter egg. The mascot of the BSD license, Freedoom is BSD licensed. The Beastie graphic also perfectly fits.

https://github.com/Voros2/freedoom/blob/6438e9aa1de166f20c02477225fbec23f16bc552/sprites/bbrna0.gif?raw=1https://github.com/Voros2/freedoom/blob/6438e9aa1de166f20c02477225fbec23f16bc552/sprites/bbrnb0.gif?raw=1
test GIF

(Wasn't accepted because chungy/fraggle stated that the IoS is just an injoke)
https://github.com/freedoom/freedoom/pull/338

Exactly the reason why beastie is perfect. Its not meant to be serious, but symbolic. Id hanging keen was symbolic. A cat doesnt fit, neither does the zam. But the zam looks great. Beastie is symbolic.

TBQH, I believe Freedoom shouldn't emphasise it's freedom in licensing, but rather be a serious game. Which is why I'm against using Beastie, or any other license mascot. It just reminds the player that this game is open source, which I'm sure they wouldn't care for. The readme and copying files already state Freedoom's open source nature, why bring that into the game? Let the game be serious so players can have some serious fun with it.

Let the Zam stay because it's unique to Freedoom itself, not its BSD license.

I don't like the idea of shooting cats. I hate shooting dogs in games.

I agree, it's kind of annoying when a game makes you shoot all these dogs. I don't really play Wolf, but I didn't like shooting Brahmin(cows) and Mutant Hounds in Fallout. Elevator Action 2 comes to mind as a game completely ruined by this. Realism though is a huge factor and to me the cartoon cat was inoffensive. What's OK to kill in a videogame is pretty subjective.

Catoptromancy said:

What if someone made a really good icon of sin? Stallman will never change, it is a symbolic easter egg. Beastie is also a perfect symbolic easter egg. The mascot of the BSD license, Freedoom is BSD licensed. The Beastie graphic also perfectly fits.

Beastie itself is not a free resource. It is copyrighted and trademarked by Kirk McKusick, and while he tends to be lenient on its usage, he tries to make sure it's only used in relation to the actual BSD software. Hell, the copyright restrictions on it are why all the major BSDs (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD) stopped using Beastie as their logos and mascots.

Cute idea, but it won't happen.

agenten said:

but I can get around to replacing Stallman's head later.

At this point it would not surprise me in the least if Freedoom actually did drop Stallman's head.

Memfis said:

No way I will ever use Freedoom if you have to kill cats in it.

I'd just like to second this.

agenten said:

It's okay because they're nazidogs?

You don't remember the brief animation where the nazidogs would raise a paw in a nazi salute and bark twice?

That's pure evil.

edit: Since this game is all about being open source, the icon of sin could be a "©" (copyright symbol) sitting atop a pile of bloody money, gold, and diamonds.

from what i know exist more too, some others you have to deal whit bats, rats and etc, see no poblem at all (it's just a game)

So I think the reasons for not having cats are a little ridiculous, as per the above similar examples.

Let me posit a better counter-argument: FreeDoom's own goals.

One of them, if I am not mistaken, is that FreeDoom can act as a base for hobbyists to make their own Doom content or even own game, yes? It stands to reason, something generic (e.g. fuses to be destroyed) would fit that purpose better. Hell, the Icon Of Sin head could even be a reactor core (or bomb) or something to that end.

If FreeDoom's being shaken up (which it is, right now, of which I am thankful to all involved) then in my opinion the goals of the project should be sacrosanct, even in the secret level content.

Jayextee said:

It stands to reason, something generic (e.g. fuses to be destroyed) would fit that purpose better.

Something like a crystal on a wire (that crumbles into dust) would be kinda cool as a Keen replacement, and about as neutral as you can possibly get.

Xindage said:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gviRiyqCS0E/U2RGFiSeuxI/AAAAAAAAqpI/BAnvYWKyJJ4/s1600/Heretic_(MS-DOS)_38.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CGImXOAPzW8/U2dafiTcKEI/AAAAAAAAq28/-T6NRX7Noss/s1600/Hexen-Beyond_Heretic_(DOS)_118.png

Not real chickens and pigs, but transmogrified monsters. Who still attack you despite the transformation. And if you wait a bit, they turn back into the monsters they originally were.

Xindage said:

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/infinity_dreams/misc/images/wolf3d3.gif

Attack dogs who are attacking you.

Xindage said:

http://wp.xin.at/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WinRottGL_dogmode_01.jpg

You're the dog now, man.

Warning : Cat lover may get piss off when watch this video. :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehb-gbuo0Zs


But even that's a game and I still hate that thing. :(


EDIT : Well, looks like that count as weapons, not enemies so I feel silly now, and since Delete post won't works anymore just I just edited out.

Xindage said:

from what i know exist more too, some others you have to deal whit bats, rats and etc, see no poblem at all (it's just a game)

Interesting points, I own and love dogs and cats as pets, and despite that I still very much enjoy Wolfenstein 3D and Quake and other id software products despite their usage of dogs as adversaries that you should shoot to kill and other hints of animal cruelty (such as the severed rabbit head on a pike) However its important to make the distinction between what is ok and what is desired. The idea of killing animals, harmless or not doesn't sit will with me. Because Doom and other similar games of the era have been great to us, and have set a precedent where smashing chickens and pigs to pieces is normal, I'm not fighting for legislation to enforce that the depiction of animal killing is off limits. But when it comes to favoring one over the other, there has to be something better than killing cats hanging from a noose.

playerlin said:

Warning : Cat lover may get piss off when watch this video. :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehb-gbuo0Zs


But even that's a game and I still hate that thing. :(


EDIT : Well, looks like that count as weapons, not enemies so I feel silly now, and since Delete post won't works anymore just I just edited out.

That was even in the Postal movie and you can clearly see that it doesn't harm the cat.

Don't attempt this in real life, please. You'll be really upset with what happens.