My First Real Map - Slaughter style

Edit: I'm adding some screenshots to the top of the post because people tend to show more interest when there are screenshots. The rest of the post is below.

Here's the original post with the upadated link:

It turns out that my map is a bit extreme for the Nova III project, but I do need some insight on it to bring up the quality I'm hoping for.

If you like Slaughter maps, please take a look at my map, "Torn" in map slot 12.

Image pack: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-yJ-Ip74OJtWHpqRzdtbF9PMzg
Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-yJ-Ip74OJtOFR6WUVzWUtrc00
Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-yJ-Ip74OJtNVhjYlBySERUalU

post: 

Edit: Difficulty settings have been added.

Be sure to look around before opening the first door so you know where to get the BFG.

If you believe that this map would be suitable to some other compilation, please let me know.
If you have some recommendations or comments, please share them, I put in a LOT of work on this, I do want to push it to the highest quality I can make it.

Thanks,

Robert

I thought difficulty wasn't a factor for Nova 3 submissions, at least from the original an_mutt thread. Is AD_79 trying to casual the project up or something? ;)

Several people indicated that it would make the project less well received because community maps rarely have slaughter maps with 5k monsters in them.

2 hours ago, Spectre01 said:

Is AD_79 trying to casual the project up or something? ;)

wtf, no

It's worth noting that I haven't even touched the map as of yet. If it's fun, it has a place in Nova (it would end up tucked away in a secret map slot so it wouldn't be mandatory, as I understand it's quite a niche genre), but if you want to release it standalone and make something else for Nova, go ahead.

I don't want to have a negative impact on the image of the megawad. People in JohnSuitePee's stream weren't particularly happy with the traps that he had a tough time with. 

Hoo boy. I gave it a solid try but slaughter maps really aren't my style. I wasn't too keen on the weird platforming bit at the beginning. I ended up jumping across after a couple deaths just so I could get to the main attraction. This definitely is an overwhelming experience, but you seem to have equipped the player pretty well with that Rocket Launcher. It did feel good to run around the first(?) big arena while invulnerable, but I was not able to keep up with the onslaught of Mancubi that came in through the entrance, not to mention everything else shooting at me. It's a very nice looking map, for sure! I'm a little sad to see it leave Nova 3, even if it isn't for me.

Gave it a try even though I personally fucking HATE slaughtermaps. It looks pretty nice and on skill 0 it was doable. You seem like a pretty capable mapper, would like to see some non-slaughter stuff from you in the future.

(first post with the new design)

Well I played through a bit of this last night, and good grief this is difficult for me so far, although there's plenty of room to work with in the main area so far. Although this has now been removed from NOVA 3 I will continue to playtest this map in the next couple of streams.....because I don't think I'll be beating this at pace!

Best example of proper slaughter map is Go2it from Plutonia.
I like Go2it and Punisher style maps, but dislike Slaughterfest 2012, Nuts and similars - some of them just have plain rooms filled with monsters and there is mostly one tactic - grab BFG, kill monsters and evade archvile flames. Dump.

Not bad slaughtermap!  its fair yet hard at the same time.  I would like to note that although this map has a good amount of detail, it does lag my computer in some open areas, so this can be a problem for people with computers that arnt that great because it takes alot to make a doom map lag me.

I played this for about 70 minutes (with saves) and I'm at 2,6k kills w/ RK and YK acquired. Currently stuck for a bit in this awkward waterfall room with 4 Cybers and a shit ton of HKs. The sheer size of the map is rather overwhelming and might be a bit of turnoff for some players. At least the map is overflowing with health items and powerups so it's not game over after every small mistake. Overall I've definitely had fun playing it with saves thus far!

Up to the waterfall arena everything seemed perfectly manageable difficulty-wise. The waterfall arena seems a bit more trial-and-error than anything else though, but it's possible that I just haven't figured out a proper strategy yet. YK platforming area is supremely annoying but I'm not a fan of platforming in Doom in general. Tiny friggin platforms and you inhabited the place with the most annoying, and deadliest, sniper enemies possible... 

Architecture is pretty damn cool, very Sunder-esque. There was some lag on my computer too in the early stages of the playthrough when most enemies were still alive in the hub arena. You use a lot of ledge type detailing which leads me to believe that there might be some shortcut possibilities, but I didn't investigate these much further. Hopefully nothing map-breaking is present though. It also seemed awfully easy to perform an AV jump over the knee-high yellow bars in the opening bars. Again, I didn't try it but there is a conveniently placed Arch-vile so it should be very easy and could even happen by accident. The reason that I mention this is that I hope you have considered this and the map won't break if you perform this "trick". Also because I had an accidental AV jump over similar bars in the RK-wing, so that I initially skipped the small platforming section which would otherwise lower said bars. This skip at least didn't seem to break anything.

You could probably think about moving the first backpack, which is now located next to the PG, to a "can't miss" position since it seems like you intended that the player immediately grabs it anyway. I managed to miss it and played like 30 mins with limited ammo capacity, which was a bit of an annoyance.

Well f$#@k. I didn't set the tag on the lift in the waterfall area right. I'll be releasing an update shortly.

So sorry!

Thanks to everyone that played it. Yes, @Veinen you can AV jump to either location, it doesn't break anything, in fact, it could potentially be used in a speed run, but it'd be difficult to imagine how much it'd help. (skipping to the BFG that way is possible, but getting the red key and then back to trigger the AV w/o the BFG would be insane to me unless you pacifist a lot of it.

Robert

With an update now coming up shortly, I'm going to abandon my playtesting streams of this map. It's not like I don't have a giant list to be getting on with....

I finished up after acquiring the Orange Skull key. The area around said key was awkward & terrible precise platforming with irritating monsters (don't mind me, I'll just autistically rage about this for 30-40 minutes before eventually figuring out what to do. D'oh!), which I believe MarketAnarchy is going to adjust. There's a few minor awkward geometry spots also, like the green torch pillars on the bridges in the main room not exactly helping for fluid circumnavigation.

That being said, some satisfying (if not difficult at times) slaughter in here at times and the detailing looks nice overall. Not bad at all for somebody's first attempt at a slaughtermap!

13 hours ago, Suitepee said:

Not bad at all for somebody's first attempt at a slaughtermap!

Thanks @Suitepee, it's my first attempt at a real map at all other than the Abyssal Speedmapping Sessions and Joy of Mapping.

Thank you again for taking the time to look at it and give me your input.

Robert

After implementing some changes as recommended by @Suitepee, @dobu gabu maru, @Veinen, and others (sorry if I missed you) I have what will likely be the final version of Torn.

I know that @MegaBlast, @MTX1996, @bemused, and others are interested in testing the map, but I would truly appreciate anyone else's input.

The updated map link is in the OP and here:

Image pack: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-yJ-Ip74OJtWHpqRzdtbF9PMzg

Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-yJ-Ip74OJtNVhjYlBySERUalU

Edit: Difficulty settings have been added.

ok, threw a few hours at it.. found a few breaks and cheesy spots, and got totally lost after the 64x64 block platforming by the cyb. also found what seems to be a pretty major break there where you can skirt around the side of the green torch and be on the top of the start area wall.. Called it a day after i had run around for 5-10mins totally lost trying to work out where to get the yellow key. My navigational skills are bad at the best of times, so i could just be ignoring something really obvious :P

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wleibddruc5prbv/marketdemo.lmp?dl=0

1MB demo full of painful death, bad play, and savescumming.. Hope it isnt too depressing! will PM across a .txt file for a bit more detailed thoughts and opinions.

Thanks for making it, theres not enough people making big ol slaughtermaps anymore :)

Sshhh. That skirt was intentional. 

Thanks for playing it, I'll watch the playthrough now. Looking forward to the commentary.

Robert

@bemused

I see what happened, the upstairs switch opens the door below where there's 10 mancubi on red skin boxes.

I'll have to figure out some way to make that a little more obvious, John SuitePee missed it too, but eventually went back and found it.

The green torch slide thing you did wasn't intended, I'll fix that.

Robert

yep, my navigational skills are definitely bad :P

Updated full demo and feedback sent via PM :)

Think it took me 4 hours to beat real time.

Easily the biggest and toughest that I've played, hope there wasn't too much salt, I haven't done much slaughter stuff or played anything but my own maps in half a year.

Other than some uneven floors and lighting in the pillar room no real problems.

I think you must have watched and studied for a long time before making this as nothing even close has come out of a first map submission I've ever seen.

This is sort of off topic, but, how did you get PrBoom+ to look so nice for your screenshots? Everything looks kinda desaturated when I play it.

The following is a review I wrote for the map before it was taken out of Nova 3. Since then, I didn't know what to do with what I wrote, but I figure I might as well post it. Remember, the review pertains to the map as it would stand in Nova 3. Note also that I did not complete the map all the way, though I still may do so.

Aesthetically, the map is beautiful. From the twin spiraling stairs that encircle the plasma gun, to the towering blood ledges where enemies snipe, and the tech rooms filled with intricate lattice work and lights- it all looks incredible. I love the use of tan and black on the walls, too. The map has a different feel than a typical Hell level, in that it is more dreamlike. The macabre elements take backseat to the unusual and spacious architecture.

Gameplay is where the map suffers.

The monster count is 5024(!)

While that is not all that high of a number for a Doom map, it is too much for this one. The amount of detailed architecture mixed with thousands of monsters is already going to put a lot of strain on many a players computers. My computer is good, and the map lags. Most of the time it is okay, but there are points where it is so bad it is nearly unplayable; the game is suddenly a slide show of a few frames a second. It is very disorienting.

Another problem is the infinitely tall actors associated with playing in strict Boom. Waves of Cacodemons make it frustrating to navigate, as they impede progress, even when they are too high up to see. Certain swamrs have to be taken out slowly and meticulously before you can navigate new areas, which is tedious. I love running and gunning in huge intricate maps like this, but in this case the infinite height makes it nearly impossible.

The room after the start is also really annoying. You are given a rocket launcher, then fall into a tiny platform with sergeants and imps right in your face. Using the RL is pointless as you'll kill yourself in such close quarters. Then having to dodge the revs on the platforms is a pain, but at least more manageable. There's nothing wrong with difficulty, but it has to be the right kind. I suggest giving the player the RL at the beginning like normal, but ditching the imps and sergeants on the platform. You could use imps in place of the revs on the platforms that lead to the staircase up to the next area, which would give the player a little respite before the chaos of the upcoming areas.

As stated, the map is beautiful, and I have had fun playing it. It's certainly frustrating at points, and I admit I had to camp a few times just to make certain areas manageable (mainly the swarm of Mancs that come teleporting into the beginning area). With so many monsters, lots of lagging, and infinite height, I had no choice but to take some areas slow. When I was able to run around running and gunning, it was great fun. Though there are a lot of snipers, they are all manageable. I'm glad you didn't spam too many chaingunners, and instead used imps, mancs, arachnotrons, etc.

Overall, a great effort, with incredible aesthetics and fine gameplay most of the time, but some gripes here and there.

17 hours ago, NecrumWarrior said:

This is sort of off topic, but, how did you get PrBoom+ to look so nice for your screenshots? Everything looks kinda desaturated when I play it.

I'm guessing you've got your gamma set on prboom to level 4 or something. Try pressing f11 to see if it fixes it.

17 hours ago, NecrumWarrior said:

This is sort of off topic, but, how did you get PrBoom+ to look so nice for your screenshots? Everything looks kinda desaturated when I play it.

What resolution and video mode do you use? The shots in the OP look like either high-res software or high-res GL with no filtering. 

Thank you @obake for the detailed review.

I'll admit, the start is a bit "dickish" by putting the RL to start. If I put it on a platform after you drop and kill the shotgunners & imps that would remove the "rocket to the face" thing. 

If you've ever played Sunder's map 8, you'll recall a throng of cacodemons that overwhelms you if you don't back off over and over, constantly needing ammo to deal with them. I was shooting for something like that. The chasm, however, may make that untenable. It's designed so you can hop back and forth over it, hopefully to give you a feeling of "I'm a badass jumping over this gorge killing cacos left and right." I think once you jump from side to side, the area is definitely large enough to handle the mass attack, but if your computer starts lagging, that makes the whole thing fail. 

When you say your computer is good but it lags, I'm on a pretty obsolete machine, and didn't run into any slowness. I have a 3.3 i5-2500 CPU, 16gb DDR3-1333 ram and a NVIDIA GeForce GT 610 video card which I've had for quite some time. Am I mistaken that my specs are obsolete?

Do you really think that the map will lag out on a lot of users' computers? If so, I'm going to have to make some significant modifications. 

I'll hopefully be getting insights from a couple other people on playability/lag and go from there.

Thanks again for the detailed and insightful review!

Robert

For reference, using glboom+ @1440p it ran fine for me, it did dip below the 165fps max my monitor will display at certain points in the central area, but nothing too distracting and certainly not below 60fps at any time. I do have a pretty decent pc though so my results probably wont be typical for the average player. 

I never had fps issues using prboom+ at 1600x1200. But I cap my fps at 35 :P

3 hours ago, MarketAnarchy said:

Thanks again for the detailed and insightful review!

Robert

You're welcome.

Seeing the responses, I'm wondering if I may just need to adjust my settings.

9 hours ago, rdwpa said:

What resolution and video mode do you use? The shots in the OP look like either high-res software or high-res GL with no filtering. 

I pretty much figured it out. I assumed he was doing something in main PrBoom+ but it must be GLBoom+ cuz that's what I had to use to get similar results. Strangely it doesn't seem to run all that well, or at least as well as QZDoom seems to run with GL rendering with no filtering. Anyway that's enough detracting from the topic from me!

Some of those screenshots remind me of some of Sunder's maps.