Lack of MP projects + mappers

This little section of the forum is pretty barren honestly. I'm wondering what the general position is people here have on Doom multiplayer (PvP or PvE)?

I'm also wondering if there is a factor other than declining population why MP projects are pretty few and far between as well. Understandably people who don't play MP don't really want to map for PvP, but is there more to it than that?

Maybe this is born out of curiosity in terms of me being unable to get people interested in working on project (though it doesn't escape me that *I* could be the deciding "no" factor here), but in general I guess I want to know people's feelings here on MP and MP mapping.

Last time I tried to get into PvP, the player base was too small to get any game going, besides the active players does not seem interested in playing in public servers that much, so I just looked for something to do while I waited to start a FFA or a duel until inevitably something caught my eye, resulting in never playing, eventually leading me to give up Doom multiplayer altogether. Quake has some games going sometimes but they are only team based, and everyone knows how friendly those are for starters. Mapping for multiplayer is a waste of time since nothing will replace ssl2, judas23_ and brit (zdctfmp for ctf game modes) maps just like nothing will replace ztndm1, dm4 and aerowalk for Quake. Coop is often boring so I just fuck around doom builder and play the maps I make for myself (PvE of course). There is nothing many new things to deliver in mapping, everything has been done, it is more of the same from now on.

Sure, there are megaman and all out war 2, but I have no interest in playing those.

I think it comes down to a few things, most of which ultimately boil down to time. I'm sure that this thread will receive quite a few people who will express interest in DM'ing, but few folk will carry through with it and even less will continue after their first experience. That's not to say Doom's DM is terrible, but most people get their asses handed to them on their first day (or find nobody to play against); Doom's DM is very fast-paced and has a steep learning curve, especially since most DM'ers don't abide by some 'gentlemen's code.' I see you, you die; that's it. Controlling the arena is important and most DM'ers are capable of quickly navigating through a map to find where their target respawned; gotta kill them before they get geared up and turn the tables (keep momentum). Couple that with the learning curve of exactly where to shoot, which many fairly experienced DM'ers don't exactly know either, just leads to what can easily become frustrating: death after death after pointless death; accomplishing nothing of note in the process as they've yet to put a noticeable dent in the opponent. But that's one reason why it's good to have friendly people in the DM community in particular; something has to keep newcomers coming back for more punishment ;D

Time is the factor here, though; we only have enough time to either x or y. Play Doom or map Doom? Do that or code/make sprites/textures/music? If play Doom, SP or MP? There are so many awesome SP maps out there; enough for most of us to have a backlog, so what option excites us the most? That's where, if we want people to MP, we need to target: the decision to make time for it.

Now of course all of mapping hinges on playing, as you said, which leads us to your question about the lack of MP projects. Of course we already tack off a good chunk of folk just from not DM'ing in the first place, but then we gotta also minus off the folk that want to put out their work to appeal to the most amount of people possible. Asking about DM projects is almost akin to asking about Heretic SP projects: one-two notable ones per year. With many mappers, particularly here on DW, targeting Boom/vanilla for compat reasons, it's not much of a surprise that many won't choose to invest time into making a DM map (On the SP end: most good mappers do at least put in coop starts, but a few also put in coop 'things,' which counts to most as a 'coop map.' On that note, I'd love to see a 'real' coop-only map that requires, say, 2 people to finish). Pair that up with the fact that most DM maps don't tend to stick as the DM'ers of the community continue to just replay Judas23 and Dwango5 for the thousandth-through-thousand-tenth time (which I like) after maybe playing a new map once, after which that new map is forgotten and fades away, save for the occasional compilation wad or mega release which even still only has a chance to stick if it has a dedicated player-base. Even then, it'll come and go as most do; prolly be back later on, but who knows when. Nothing beats the staples and that's what most DM'ers want: maps they know and can control, maps they know well-enough to have a good time, or maps with a good current player count. But the deciding factor here is still time; does one want to invest time into making something that may or may not be played much at all by a small, limited number of people? In addition, there is more pressure on making things right or else people won't want to spend hundreds of hours fragging in it, so it demands a good knowledge of DMs, which means that mappers should be regular DM'ers. Bad prospects, but it is the way it is. With a larger player-base I think we'll see more maps roll in, just gotta get them in and keep them in.

DM mapping is for when you just want to make a small pretty map without thinking about the gameplay.

Mapping is a pretty solitary activity. You can place monsters where ever you want if its fun for you and kill them at your leisure. You need a friend to test a pvp map with, which often means sharing your map long before it is done to figure out any important flaws. I think many mappers are shy about sharing stuff they consider to be a work in progress. Especially because people here are often known to be very blunt and honest about whether things are good or not, and the multiplayer forum is no exception.

Made this last month : Linky.

But i agree, there's very few MP Projects.

Pve is still fun for me but its hard to find people to play with because everyone seems to want to keep playing the same thing over and over and not try anything new.

My problem with pvp is the lack of custom pvp wads and mods to shake things up a bit, I'm tired of classic gameplay just like i'm tired of vanilla minecraft since iv played that for years and years.

The most played Game mode is Co-op, I suppose that's why most projects tend to be Singleplayer focused, probably also designed for coop play in mind (eg : making areas accessible by more than just 1 person), same applies for Gameplay mods.

im trying my hardest decay

bob where is zctc