Which map is harder, E4M1 Hell Beneath or E4M2 Perfect Hatred?

btw that's a reference to Psalm 139:22

2 minutes ago, superchargecacodemons799 said:

Hate. I hate E4M2 with perfect hatred.

There was story behind this level, but I don't remember correctly, maybe I'm wrong.

Story? You mean how John Romero made that map in six hours?

1 minute ago, Xyzzy01 said:

Story? You mean how John Romero made that map in six hours?

Yeah. This one.

6 minutes ago, MysteriousHaruko said:

There was story behind this level, but I don't remember correctly, maybe I'm wrong.

Psalm 139:22:

I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them my enemies.
 

Nih what are you doing on this silly thread

1 minute ago, Grain of Salt said:

Nih what are you doing on this silly thread

Good question... I should be shopping for high heels, now that I think about it...

Except that E4M2: Perfect Hatred is very very very very very very very very very very tricky and is complicated as E1M7: Computer Station and E2M7: Spawning Vats, and some other maps, but E4M1 is very straightforward - ESP you explore is mandatory to complete this map minimum!

I'm sure that E1M3: Toxin Refinery is the second hardest of Episode 1, because there is a demon and a spectre (BTW the spectre debuts in that map) at the beginning and from a pistol start you must dodge them with only a pistol until you kill a shotgunner!

Also ESP in this case stands for every single place.

23 minutes ago, Xyzzy01 said:

Story? You mean how John Romero made that map in six hours?

I can't believe John Romero built such a complicated and overwhelming map in less than 6 hours - it is also the shortest it took him to finish any map, but that maybe the reason why the map is so tricky, because John Romero rushed in making it and put some stuff to be so difficult. Rushing in making maps may lead to unexpected impossibility.

For me its E4M2, but its difficult because E4M1 is hard.

Though E4M2 happens to be my favorite Ultimate Doom map because of how memorable it is.

For me E4M6 is "hard" due to BS.

Bible quotes are badass. Made the Episode 4 names really stand out.

20 hours ago, superchargecacodemons799 said:

I can't believe John Romero built such a complicated and overwhelming map in less than 6 hours -

Maybe he already had the whole idea in his head, so it was a matter of execution to draw it in the editor. Think about it… it's a large cave, some side rooms, a smaller side cave and the exit ahead, by some obstacles. I suppose it took him a bit more to fine tune it.

The one with the NIN reference.

I kinda have to play E4 again, as you can see.

Definitely E4M1, especially when going for 100%. E4M2 is only really hard at the beginning with the horde of Cacodemons. Usually I just drop to the pit below, get the Radiation Suit, go up that staircase in the corner to get to the room behind the starting area (where there's two more Boxes of Shotgun Shells), and finish off the Cacodemons from there.

Afterwards, you then get a Plasma Gun with plenty of ammo for it to blast through the rest of the map. Plus, the Cyberdemon simply gets telefragged. And you're almost guaranteed to leave the map with maximum cells. I like the map.

2 hours ago, peach freak said:

Definitely E4M1, especially when going for 100%. E4M2 is only really hard at the beginning with the horde of Cacodemons. Usually I just drop to the pit below, get the Radiation Suit, go up that staircase in the corner to get to the room behind the starting area (where there's two more Boxes of Shotgun Shells), and finish off the Cacodemons from there.

 

Afterwards, you then get a Plasma Gun with plenty of ammo for it to blast through the rest of the map. Plus, the Cyberdemon simply gets telefragged. And you're almost guaranteed to leave the map with maximum cells. I like the map.

E4M2 is actually harder. It is hard at all times, including the cacodemons at the start, even with the George Bell BFG Grab or Steffen Winterfeldt Jump, the map is still very tricky. There are 12 Barons of Hell, in such little space, there is a lot of space but most of it is in the lava, and everything is above and cannot jump into the lava, and unless you have a radiation suit you will take damage. Also everything at the start is facing you, and the cyberdemon can have his rockets target you if you take your time while running for the TFC (telefrag for cyberdemon) teleporter. Also besides the teleporter being open a trap will also open at that time, revealing a swarm of cacodemons. Also there is a lot of danger, especially the rock area full of barons, cacodemons, and spectres, that want to kill you. There is virtually no space to hide, not much ammo (the BFG uses 40 plasma units and it is not much against everything protecting the exit switches from Doomguy in this map), also E4M6: Against Thee Wickedly is almost all the difficulty of E4M2 but you can not telefrag the cyberdemon and you must rush for the invulnerability and quick as a wink, without taking your time, dodge the cyberdemon rockets easily, which is somewhat a pain in the ass, but, at least other maps that John Romero designed besides E4M2 and E4M6, Knee-Deep in the Dead, was much more calm and easier, not sure how John Romero chosen to make his maps in Thy Flesh Consumed be overwhelming, but in E1M6: Central Processing, that is also 177 enemies, more enemies than these two difficult maps, but are less powerfull and more of at a UAC (Union Aerospace Corporation) base and it probably does NOT allow much hell in it, but in fact E4M6 is even more complicated than the computer-full E1M7: Computer Station, E2M7: Spawning Vats, the crate maze in E2M2: Containment Area (btw I think E2M2 is the best map in the history of Doom), the puzzles in E3M4: House of Pain, the maze in E3M7: Gate to Limbo, and the rock sortof-maze in E4M2: Perfect Hatred!!!

Btw I have on my wiki about The Ultimate Doom, to see walkthroughs: http://theultimatedoom.wikia.com/wiki/ Except I am 1 less than my wikia username.

E4M1 too little space. Also for completion, I do try to kill the barons in the NIN room and end up dying. I always save before that.

E4M2 has annoying jumps, I fall into lava. But I like it more than E4M1 in difficulty.

Having just replayed all of Episode 4 tonight (Ultra-Violence, continuous without in-level saves), E4M6 emerged as the hardest. I got through E4M1 in two tries, M2 in three, and took a few more on M6 (granted, I was figuring out how to route it again/rediscovering how to use its secrets, so it wasn't as straight forward as M1 or M2). Still, there's nothing worse than getting blasted off the Cyberdemon platform while you're invincible at the end.

It does strike me, though, no matter, that E4M6 forces you to use its secrets in a way neither of the other two levels discussed here do. At least if you want to get through smoothly (passages to grab Soul Spheres and invisibility, passages to clear out some of the platforms before you teleport to them, and the all-important invincibility before approaching the Cyberdemon).

Not sure how they'd compare from pistol starts, but I'll try that next time I play.

14 hours ago, printz said:

Maybe he already had the whole idea in his head, so it was a matter of execution to draw it in the editor. Think about it… it's a large cave, some side rooms, a smaller side cave and the exit ahead, by some obstacles. I suppose it took him a bit more to fine tune it.

Still, this was 1994 and he had a shitty map editor.

I find E4M1 easier of the two. The teleport and strafing into the shotgunners is also satisfying :>

14 hours ago, Optimus said:

E4M1 too little space. Also for completion, I do try to kill the barons in the NIN room and end up dying. I always save before that.

E4M2 has annoying jumps, I fall into lava. But I like it more than E4M1 in difficulty.

I don't give a flying monkey's ass that E4M1 has limited space. It is enough for everything, at least the shotgun takes care of it.

4 hours ago, TacoTurtle said:

I find E4M1 easier of the two. The teleport and strafing into the shotgunners is also satisfying :>

 

Good job. E4M1 is tricky but straightforward, there are no areas that are non-secrets and optional. All areas are required to beat the map otherwise are secrets.

On 8/8/2017 at 9:44 PM, GarrettChan said:

Try no BFG grab, no Winterfeldt jump and max it within 5 min ;P

LMAO!! Lol that would be super tricky!! I did do E4M2 without BFG grab or Winterfeldt jump and did it several times and failed to finish it in less than 5 minutes! At least I did do E4M6 no damage in my spare time, the key thing in that challenge is to get to the first radiation suit as fast as possible without taking any lava damage. Then there is a cyberdemon at the end and all that stuff, you must be very carefull in that challenge, and it is extremely tricky, but is actually possible! But E4M2 no damage is impossible!

Interesting question. I played the original Doom to death, but by the time Ultimate Doom came out I had moved on Doom 2 and Quake, so I didn't play Thy Flesh Consumed until years later. I've probably played the levels two or three times in the last twenty years although I do remember that it was weirdly disjointed - hard then hard (then easy) then easy then easy then easy then hard then really old-fashioned and easy then easy.

If I had been in charge I would have had E4M1 as the secret level, and then the rest of the maps would be ordered so that they built up to E4M2 and E4M6 as the grand finale(s). Those two levels have a similar theme - lots of baddies and lava, rock hard, like prototypes for Hell Revealed.

For a lark I decided to record myself playing E4M1 and E4M2 on UV with a pistol start, without preparation. I am by no means a competitive Doom player. Notice how in E4M1 I decided to cut my losses before hunting for the Baron secret, and although I got 100% of everything in E4M2 I spent ages at the end trying to open the hidden level, beyond which I almost died a couple of times:

E4M2 is of the few instances where pistol starting the level probably puts you in a better position than exiting from the previous levels. In my opinion E4M2 is harder in absolute terms, but it's hard to compare the two levels because they're different sizes. In terms of "hardness per inch" E4M1 is more difficult because it's short of health and ammo - the really hard thing is killing the last batch of Barons, and only then because you absolutely have to ration your ammo. The UV 100% completion videos I have seen generally rely on making the Barons bunch up against the iron railings in the second half of the level so you can kill them with rocket splash damage.

Why in the E4M2 video you kept getting into the southwest opening to the ledge and yellow key, then you kept falling down into the lava, went up, and took the back of the teleporter? Why did you not get to the cyberdemon immediately?

8 hours ago, superchargecacodemons799 said:

LMAO!! Lol that would be super tricky!! I did do E4M2 without BFG grab or Winterfeldt jump and did it several times and failed to finish it in less than 5 minutes! At least I did do E4M6 no damage in my spare time, the key thing in that challenge is to get to the first radiation suit as fast as possible without taking any lava damage. Then there is a cyberdemon at the end and all that stuff, you must be very carefull in that challenge, and it is extremely tricky, but is actually possible! But E4M2 no damage is impossible!

To be honest, I think it's difficult to have a reality run of E4M6, rather than maxing E4M2 in 5min. Probably try to beat E4M6 without Invulnerability would be crazier ;P

@superchargecacodemons799 If you would read the top paragraph of that post you would mostly understand.

25 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

To be honest, I think it's difficult to have a reality run of E4M6, rather than maxing E4M2 in 5min. Probably try to beat E4M6 without Invulnerability would be crazier ;P

It's actually possible to do no damage on E4M6. The main thing is to run to the radiation suit as fast as possible and avoid damage from the lava. Also there are a lot of hitscan enemies that cannot be dodged, so be very carefull in that map.

E4M1 by far. e4m2 has exploits that can make it easier. Plus there is plenty of health. So no contest here. I'm also talking from a UV Max standpoint.

14 hours ago, superchargecacodemons799 said:

Why in the E4M2 video you kept getting into the southwest opening to the ledge and yellow key, then you kept falling down into the lava, went up, and took the back of the teleporter? Why did you not get to the cyberdemon immediately?

That's because I couldn't for the life of me remember how to raise the pillar over the last teleport - even though I had already opened it! At 08:57 and 09:20 I looked straight at it, but it simply didn't register in my mind that the pillar had already raised. By that time I was starting to panic because I was low on health, so I was thinking more about scouring the level for health packs.

Then I became convinced that walking over the blue armour square in the hidden room opened up the secret exit, which is of course wrong.

At least I remembered the switch at 03:33 that raises most of the middle section of the level. I stumbled on that the first time I played the map. It's not one of the official secrets and it's easy to miss.

3 hours ago, Ashley_Pomeroy said:

 

That's because I couldn't for the life of me remember how to raise the pillar over the last teleport - even though I had already opened it! At 08:57 and 09:20 I looked straight at it, but it simply didn't register in my mind that the pillar had already raised. By that time I was starting to panic because I was low on health, so I was thinking more about scouring the level for health packs.

 

Then I became convinced that walking over the blue armour square in the hidden room opened up the secret exit, which is of course wrong.

 

At least I remembered the switch at 03:33 that raises most of the middle section of the level. I stumbled on that the first time I played the map. It's not one of the official secrets and it's easy to miss.

What? Opening the room with cacodemons and exit switch will also open the telefrag-for-cyberdemon teleporter!