Confusing design

Okay this is going to sound stupid to many of you, but when you sit down to design a map, do you include all kinds of detail and notes?
I do that now, sector by sector on a seperate page, which takes a while.

Reason i ask is this: I set out to design a bunch of Doom maps and even different weapons enemies etc, like when i was 14-16 and I still have some of these very old maps. Way before I even knew there were TCs or and i didn't even have editors. problem is, they're just lines on the page, they can't speak to me, I don't know what sectors where impassible which where higher than others etc... I can recall the overall feel , though imperfectly. I did make notes as to switches and doors, acid floors and things, but there's so much involved. Does anyone else get confused looking at their old maps? or do you design the map right after you draw it, and then not do any more until your finished...just wondering
Yes another stupid, but curious post

When I want to design a map, I wait until midnight to 1am when the inspiration is really kicking in. I never drawn any maps before, it's all improvised as I did it. Plus, I think drawing a map is kinda useless because when you draw with a pencil, you won't have perfect lines and can't add much detail.

I can remember quite well the other maps that I created that wasn't release, like my first map. God it was ugly.


Let me add this to the question :

Do you remember your first map (design, gameplay,etc..) ?

Most of the time, the levels I design are done on the spot, bit by bit, as I go along. Sometimes I get really inspired by other maps that I want to emulate and therefore I know what I want to do.
I've never drawn any of the levels I've made on a piece of paper. IMO, it's a waste of paper, and the actual level can turn out far, far differently than you might expect.

DooMBoy said:

Most of the time, the levels I design are done on the spot, bit by bit, as I go along. Sometimes I get really inspired by other maps that I want to emulate and therefore I know what I want to do.
I've never drawn any of the levels I've made on a piece of paper. IMO, it's a waste of paper, and the actual level can turn out far, far differently than you might expect.

Well yes, I agree, but just like with writing, I do a whole lot of tweaking when i go to transfer it, it's just that when inspiration hits me, i'm usually not at a computer, and it takes much longer to sit down and map it that way, so i jot down the overall layout on paper, or for the period like now, where i have no computers, that make sense?

Darkstalker said:

When I want to design a map, I wait until midnight to 1am when the inspiration is really kicking in

Ditto. I do most of my designing after midnight, which is probably why I never get any sleep.

Darkstalker said:

Do you remember your first map (design, gameplay,etc..) ?

Why yes I do, unfortunately it's on a corrupted disk so it's lost forever. Doomx I think.

Here's another question.- Do you remember you first map drawling? I do, in fact, I still have it. On the back of my 5th grade homework. Heh, never did like homework.

Xanthier said:

Well yes, I agree, but just like with writing, I do a whole lot of tweaking when i go to transfer it, it's just that when inspiration hits me, i'm usually not at a computer, and it takes much longer to sit down and map it that way, so i jot down the overall layout on paper, or for the period like now, where i have no computers, that make sense?

Yeah, sure, it makes sense. Whatever really seems to work for you the best :)

i started drawing maps too, before i had an editor. they turned out to be nothing more then confusing lines and stupid barrel situations. much later, after really doing some editing, i began drawing maps on huge sprawling pieces of graph paper. But i was more experienced and labeled things like floor/ceiling height, tags, line specials and even monster types and monster facings. they're mighty impressive drawings, some i actually built.
Lately i've been plunking rooms into the editor, and this seems to work out, but i miss cranking out a huge level in a couple hours on graph paper ;)

and yes, i do have my first map drawings, in a graph tablet. the first half of this tablet is filled with bit sprites i was designing for my sega genesis game. God that was a long time ago. My first level was called pools.wad and it was the worst ever. The end.

ravage said:

Why yes I do, unfortunately it's on a corrupted disk so it's lost forever. Doomx I think.

Here's another question.- Do you remember you first map drawling? I do, in fact, I still have it. On the back of my 5th grade homework. Heh, never did like homework.

I don't remember my first map drawing, but I do remember the first time I designed my first TC. It was for Wolfenstein 3D, but since I only owned the shareware version, it never was made.

Until 2001 I always improvised, i.e., I never drew out the design or layout first. Last year I started drawing out sections or entire maps, and I've found that it doesn't make much difference to the finished product.

However, the advantage of drawing stuff is that it's a somewhat more permanent record of your ideas than keeping them in your head until you get to a computer. I travel quite a bit, and have stopped carrying a lap-top because it's a hassle. Therefore, when I have ideas I draw them out and then put them into an editor when I get back after travel.

And yes, I do remember my first map. I released it as a 3-level set in August 1999. It required a source port to prevent VPO errors.

Let me add this to the question :

Do you remember your first map (design, gameplay,etc..) ? [/B][/quote]
I don't recall that i do, I mean i drew tons upon tons of Doom maps..and since i was doing wolf 3-D maps its very hazy and most of them, I think, don't exist anymore, however i designed a TC on paper, like in 8th or 9th grade and i still have that...and if my first Doom map has'nt been thrown away, I'll find it when my parents move: :P-WAIT! i think I do remember like 1 of 4 of my very first, I made it in a warehouse like I used to work in for my dad, it's a dark one, I saw it so perfectly in my head before i went to write it down, I think it was pretty good, it was so vivid...I had to go down and jot it down on graph paper...Wish i'd find it..if I do I'll do it just for Nostalgia's sake and label it "The Shop" after the place i thought it up...oriiginally it was called "warehouse" I think, it's very weird..i'd know all the details if i saw that one, no problem there..
Another one i did soon after that had this crazy exploding barrel trick i thought of, that i think was pretty good, it was called "demon's nest" i think- that was like in 5th grade.

But half of mine were on the back of assignments too, i also never liked homework

Well, I do now what shaviro (? not sure) suggested, when you think of a map, try and write it down in terms of how the player would see it. That way you can visualise it more later.

Like:

"The player walks into the room, seeing another door on his left, and the room extends further in front of him. The walls are a brown colour, and the floor is rock."

Stuff like that.

mmnpsrsoskl said:

Well, I do now what shaviro (? not sure) suggested, when you think of a map, try and write it down in terms of how the player would see it. That way you can visualise it more later.

Like:

"The player walks into the room, seeing another door on his left, and the room extends further in front of him. The walls are a brown colour, and the floor is rock."

Stuff like that.

Wow, that could get pretty long.

You step out of the darkness. In front of you is a metal column with four sides. All four sides have demonic looking switches on them. It is up to you to figure out what switch does what. The floor is rock. The ground is blood. The walls are bloody skin.

Sound inspiring?

DooMBoy said:

You step out of the darkness. In front of you is a metal column with four sides. All four sides have demonic looking switches on them. It is up to you to figure out what switch does what. The floor is rock. The ground is blood. The walls are bloody skin.

Heh.

Yeah this is all you'd need for a quick description, and then you'd add in details later on when you are mapping it.

As you walk through the small, wooden door, you notice a large, long, marble courtyard with insets for red torches, and bloody faces. Large metal doors cover opposite ends of this area. Unfortunately, they are too big for you to open on your own. In the center of the yard is a round, grey base. On top of it is a switch that could possibly open the metal gates here. Near it, is a red teleporter pad with the pentagram inscription. You wondor where it leads to. Probably somewhere not very pleasant...

When using a narrative for map design, your best bet is to leave out the details, or else the narrative will get really long.

As they say -- a picture paints quite a few words.

ravage said:

As you walk through the small, wooden door, you notice a large, long, marble courtyard with insets for red torches, and bloody faces. Large metal doors cover opposite ends of this area. Unfortunately, they are too big for you to open on your own. In the center of the yard is a round, grey base. On top of it is a switch that could possibly open the metal gates here. Near it, is a red teleporter pad with the pentagram inscription. You wondor where it leads to. Probably somewhere not very pleasant...

Hey! That’s the same voice inside my head when I play doom.

I cant design a map that way. I need to see the rooms and areas inside my head as if im playing the game. Sometimes I will draw it out if I’m not at my computer but it always changes to better fit the image in my head.

Archaeo said:

I need to see the rooms and areas inside my head as if im playing the game.

Even people who "write" out the design of an area or a map are usually using images inside their heads. They may be adding things as they go along, but ultimately it all needs to be coherent and connected. (Well, most maps anyway. I've seen some maps that don't make any sense whatsoever.)

I always draw out my maps before I make them, as I can then plan the episode in advance, as well as making the build time quicker (it's always better when you know what you're doing in advance). In fact, I have a little blue notebook with all my designs in them. This applies to only the basic layout (rooms, passages, stairs, lifts etc.), with essential features like keys, puzzles etc. but not the fine detail, as the paper's not big enough for that.

My first map - well, I don't have the op-lite2 drawings anymore but it was that one where the power goes off at the start, and you wonder round in the dark trying to turn the power back on.

Ultimate DooMer said:

I always draw out my maps before I make them, as I can then plan the episode in advance, as well as making the build time quicker (it's always better when you know what you're doing in advance). In fact, I have a little blue notebook with all my designs in them. This applies to only the basic layout (rooms, passages, stairs, lifts etc.), with essential features like keys, puzzles etc. but not the fine detail, as the paper's not big enough for that.

My first map - well, I don't have the op-lite2 drawings anymore but it was that one where the power goes off at the start, and you wonder round in the dark trying to turn the power back on.

Yes but what about sector levels, and whether it's a wall, platform etc, how do you keep track of all that- is it all up there ^?

I usually keep a general idea of heights etc. in my head, as I don't go writing (128,256) etc. on the paper all the time. I just keep a mental note of whether it's higher or lower than the one next to it. Walls are straightforward - if I've drawn a room connecting to one, then it isn't a wall, it's a passage or door.

Thanks guys, for all your input, it's helped me greatly

Xanthier said:

well true but not with double-sided walls and areas enclosed by rooms that appear to be rooms when in fact they are one solid wall...

It's easier to darken your border lines more. (1sided lines.)

Xanthier said:

Oh, do you keep your levels on a bound notepad, or like a binder, i wonder cause mine are often on loose sheets of scratch paper, i was thinking about keeping a map pad myself.

Just a little notebook. (it's not a binder, though)

Maybe I should rummage for my scanner and show yall a couple of my maps (and idea bits). Hell, I'll search for my very FIRST maps. Inspired by that wad I cannot find (one of the old ones that replaced the shotgun with a "Pepper gun.")

Another thing I occasionally do is print out completed sections of maps while I'm in my editor. That way I have the diagram to exact scale, and I add sections using the same scale.

ravage said:

Maybe I should rummage for my scanner and show yall a couple of my maps (and idea bits). Hell, I'll search for my very FIRST maps. Inspired by that wad I cannot find (one of the old ones that replaced the shotgun with a "Pepper gun.")

hey that's what i did there on a new thread in general if you wanna take a look-see.

I was bored at work today and stated to draw a map. It worked out pretty damn good. I had keys and the doors they go with. I just may end up making this map and maybe it’s not the last time I’ll do it this way.