The DWmegawad Club plays: Plutonia Revisited Community Project

MAP04 - Emerald Pools:

This is a bit more like it: odd layout aside, the gameplay and flow for this one is a lot more fun and thought out. The difficulty is ramped up a fair bit, but never in a way that becomes frustrating and I enjoyed myself despite the numerous deaths. I have a feeling that Joshy was responsible for the gameplay while C30N9 did layout, perhaps someone can confirm for me. :)

MAP04: Emerald Pools - HMP, Continuous

Finally the first fun map of the wad. Short map with fast gameplay, a lot of this has to do with the abundance of ammo. Lots of good combat littered throughout the map. Also the map has a nice clean look to it, no surprise seeing that Joshy worked on both map 1 & this map. Only complaint was the unnecessary block lines at the back side of the Blue Armor Secret.

Map 04

Fun little map, I'd say. This one was enjoyable on -fast. The first part is the marginally tough part there (a lot more in terms of requiring patience than actual mechanical fighting), since there really isn't that much health until you get to the berserk pack at the PE/caco fight, and hitscanners and cacos can chip away at you quickly. But after that, you have plenty of supplies later on and the cyb is exceptionally harmless. I mean, the cyb is easily killed right away with normal mechanics, but on -fast even a baby could win a fight with it, thanks to the ledge. :)  My favorite thing about the map is that you can use the turret manc at the start to distract the turret vile, due to their positioning. With normal mechanics I kind of dislike fights that are nothing but mixed gasbag clouds in open space, usually just feels like cleanup, but they make engaging fights in -fast and also don't go floating back a million miles when you shoot them. Also really cool to see a couple of cacos totally wreck an arachnotron with what feels a bit like a stream of plasma. :)

Another cool thing about this map (both normal and -fast) is that usually PRs become obsolete when you get the BFG, but here, the PR can still get lots of mileage, because it's more ammo efficient against the cyb from below and, more importantly, you can use it to suppress monsters coming out of the teleporters at the end if you want a quick escape. Also a fan of the descending nukage fall area. Simple but really cool. The way Plutonia doesn't reset the z coordinates of teleporting monsters allows for some cinematic stuff, like fliers warping directly into the air.

6 hours ago, bioshockfan90 said:

Not related to PRCP, just a quick thought for a recommendation: 

 

If someone could compile a lot of really good singular sets of 1-to a-few good maps released in a certain year and compiled it, could that be played for the club? I'm thinking of the TNS retrospectives, but enough to fit a full month's worth. Maybe a few year's span... I dunno, I think it'd work out pretty well.

Dobu has a limit of three mapsets per month, and also preferably nothing under four maps in length. It might be fun to play something like Miasma once a year, though, and maybe Dobu can be greased up with the right compliments. 

My, Dobu, you are looking very crescenty today.

MAP04: Emerald Pools

This one's an engaging romp through a relatively compact playing field, providing the player with lots of weapons and ammo right from the start and inviting them to have fun.  "Playful" is how I'd describe its tone, with a lot of heavily telegraphed encounters that aren't ambushes to much as a nudge and a wink as the level declares "okay, now let's see what you do about this!"  I like the somewhat abstract arrangement of spaces, each area and substructure believable and fully-realised without going beyond that into building up larger structures or the sense of a navigable or extant landscape in which they're built; the eastern node in particular, beyond the yellow door, embraces the artificiality of Doom spaces and seems to make the most of what teleporters can do in such a layout to keep the player on their toes.

map02 fda

i like punching stuff!

MAP05 - That Flooded Place:

As some have noted, Plutonia Revisited was more of a general community effort than Plutonia 2 was, which lends itself to a different style of megawad. On one hand, you'll more likely than not see some more variety and ideas among the lineup which can lead to a more dynamic overall experience.

On the other hand though, you get maps like this.

This.

Thiiiiiiiiiiis.

Rooms connected by corridors. I don't care that the rooms have skies for ceilings, it's literally rooms connected by effing corridors! Corridors with excessive single-sided linedef geometry to boot, increasing your chances of getting caught on the wall architecture. There's no flow, no sense of presence to the whole thing, you just trundle along looking for the keys and shooting chaingunners in the face. It's ridiculous! At the very least I can say that it wasn't as aggravating to play as MAP03 was, but it's still not a great map and no amount of monster placement shuffling is gonna fix that.

MAP05: That Flooded Place, by Keeper of Jericho|7:47|100% kills|

What is it with this mapset and not understanding how to place AVs? Every time I've seen one in this mapset so far, it's been a trivial affair. Could be due to me playing on HMP, but even BTSX E1 had some better uses of the guy! Anyway, this map looks good. And it has its own individual moments of combat, but as a whole, and like Obsidian said, the corridors really drag it down creatively and in gameplay. Some of the monster placement as a whole in the map is horrid, and the lack of a decent fast-paced weapon until about halfway through the map just makes the first half feel like a slog. That being said, I enjoyed the beginning, I enjoyed the key ambushes, but the layout and gameplay need a heavy facelift for this to be memorable. That being said though, it's somewhat sad to say for me that this has been one of the better maps of the set so far. 

Map05: That Flooded Place by @Keeper of Jericho

You guys have started map05!! So I will post my video now. (Note that video itself is the biggest spoiler)

Not a difficult map but nothing special. So I have nothing to say about this map.

MAP04: Simple and short level, a bit bland visually but the gameplay was pleasant with few moments that will require some more attention.

I'm a day ahead of schedule b/c I tend to post it in AUS time, some other members do it too. Also, I'm an impatient bastard who needs to play his Plutonia. 

MAP04: Emerald Pools

Death Count: stupid 2

What Joshy mostly does is putting you under the spotlight of fire right at the start, in this case a lonely baron, so not a Joshy's typical start. Maybe the other mapper "C30N9" is responsible for this, who knows... anyway, a lot of ammo in this map, specially shells, a great abundance given the number of shotgunners. The BFG is also introduced for the pesky monsters that teleport in the keys pools. Oh yes the NBA guy is also there on UV, though he's easy meat from below. You can two-shot if you're lucky to teleport not next to him. Telefragging is also possible btw. On another side, my only two deaths were, one after the YK but that was absurdly stupid by me, and the other one by a mix of chaingunners and a rev rocket, I thought all of the revs were dead and didn't know there were also chaingunners teleporting in the last ambush. Also, I noticed the archies can block your way right after touching the red key, so a good previous green shot prevents this, so Joshy's. The map as a whole is not particularly hard, and visually is very simple yet nice. For those who couldn't get to the secret, you have to (strafe)run from the bridge, after the middle is lowered. Music is a remix of this iwad midi I can't remember the name. Overall, fun map. 

Map 05: 

I'm somewhat fascinated that this managed to make it into the finished project, so I ended up looking at the PRCP thread and then the author's posting history for background.

These posts, the first about CC4 map16, are quite revealing: 

Quote

It's not my fault most people around here seem to refuse to play with saves so you carry over weapons, or save & reload for the platforming so you don't have to run across the entire map over and over if you fall. That's how I play and so that's how I make my maps. Now I don't know how you personally play, of course, with saving or without, but I'm speaking in general. Also, it's not the first map in the wad, so logically you won't play it with pistol start. 

I made it playable from pistol start, but it's not the way it's meant to be played. It's part of a megawad, people! If it was a single, stand-alone map, then yeah, I'd be more understanding about the complaints of the start fight. But it's not a stand-alone map. It's map 16 of a megawad, by this point you should have a full arsenal already. 

 

[...]

Quote

[...]

 

- Starting the map in sectors that hurt you. Waste, hellslime, lava, you name it. I'm a 200% player. I always NEED to see my health and armor at 200%. If I get damaged, I reload and try again until I get out of it without getting hit and losing one % of health or armour. So these forced starting in damaging sectors are a nightmare. I see my pretty 200% vanish before I can even do a thing about it. =(

I found MAP05 to be pretty inoffensive, mostly because it was a welcome breather after the first four maps, and IIRC it was pretty quick to blitz through, too. I'll confess I don't mind a little filler in my megawads now and then.

15 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

post

So, what are you saying?

Map 05: That Flooded Place

(I feel like a crazy person reading all the reactions to Map 04, even from other fans of the original Plutonia, and now I just don't know if I have terrible taste or what.)

A relatively easy, unremarkable level that was less grating than Map 04 to replay the two times I died, but that's maybe its only distinction.

The gameplay doesn't resemble Plutonia's a great deal for me, though there are nods enough in the enemy selection and even the architecture. The opening walkways reminded me a jungle-themed version of "Caged," and the descending liquid-textured squares in the yellow key room evoked a similar sequence in "NME," to the point I was expecting a much nastier trap.

This is the first time I felt completely overpowered playing continuous, which is odd reading the post rdwpa pulled out above. The two Barons make for a shockingly easy penultimate encounter, though I don't know if that's a continuous issue or not. (It's hard to imagine it is, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.) I won't hold any continuous balance issues against the wad moving forward, as, while being balanced for both continuous play and pistol starts would obviously be better, it's a community project rather than the work of a small team and that comes with the territory. I will be noting levels I like enough to revisit for pistol starts after the club month though.

The final three Arch-Viles can be run past, so I did. Shoutouts to a surprise appearance from Scythe's favorite exit-room trap.

(Top post in rdwpa's quote has like all of my pet peeves (designing for save-and-load play wtf), but that didn't come to bear on my experience with this map.)

I once read the most offensive part of map 05 is doors raising into the sky, without seeing the rest of the door. That was funny.

MAP05. Time: 9:44. Kills: 100%. Secrets: 100%.

Nothing special on this map. The demo contains two ghost barons though!

prcp_arch_05.zip

^ 05 is irredeemably dull without the secret SSG, and even with it it's pretty boring, which makes sense given that the mapper doesn't really acknowledge pistol-starting as a thing. I guess you are expected to have rockets/cells. Also it makes sense that 'door camping basically everything' would be the predominant gameplay style, since I guess that'd be fun if you derive excitement trying to preserve max H/A and reloading when you don't. 

That explains why it felt like such a slog, the author expected you to play continuous? As in, with the BFG from MAP04? In a community project?

Geez.

If the sleepy encounters on continuous were actually the intended balance here (I honestly felt like I was cheesing it), that does make me like it less.

58 minutes ago, bioshockfan90 said:

That explains why it felt like such a slog, the author expected you to play continuous? As in, with the BFG from MAP04? In a community project?

 

Geez.

Given that I base all maps I made around being able to kill everything with the ssg, since that's how I play, I doubt that was the case because I didn't play any other maps besides my own until the project was done and released. But it was years ago and I honestly don't recall much about making TFP, besides wanting to make another map after my map 21 ended up so distorted from the original design due to vanilla constraints, hence why TFP ended up much simpler in design and layout. *shrugs* Either way, I remember finding the vanilla constraint annoying and I never did any vanilla maps since, not my style or strength.

59 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

^ 05 is irredeemably dull without the secret SSG, and even with it it's pretty boring, which makes sense given that the mapper doesn't really acknowledge pistol-starting as a thing. I guess you are expected to have rockets/cells. Also it makes sense that 'door camping basically everything' would be the predominant gameplay style, since I guess that'd be fun if you derive excitement trying to preserve max H/A and reloading when you don't. 

 

 

Not much of a fan of pistol starts, true, but the map was always tested from pistol start and made ensuring the player would have enough ammo to kill everything if so. I can see how one might find shotgunning everything boring, which is fair enough if it's how you feel, but it's how I like to play my Doom, so having that bleed over into my mapping style is only to be expected. But again, was made years ago and I haven't made a map in at least three years, so it might've looked different today.

Map 04, Emerald Pools

A rather fun map designed with the same textures of Plutonia map 16. It's not difficult like The Omen but the final area can be dangerous. My favorite section is the RSK ambush and the final area in general both for design and gameplay. Overall not a bad map to replay

Plutonia Revisited Community Project
MAP04: Emerald Pools
HMP Difficulty, using GZDoom and Brutal Doom
10/4/2017

This map. I loved the design I found interesting and it honored the name, Emerald Pools is a map smaller than the rest but with constant attacks of enemies and ambushes, giving a slightly more claustrophobic feeling and getting into close combat, yet is not just a map of rooms and passages, I love the acid pool area, something quite attractive to the eye and the positioning of enemies and items is done in a great way, although here, I start thinking "Hey, this does not seem that much to PE ". And therefore, the static of PE begins to fade a little, almost slightly, however this does not mean that the map is bad, in fact, it is one of my favorites until now. The combat is entertaining and the ambushes never fail, in spite of being a small map, it is quite fast and solid, it only has 2 roads, one to pick up the key and the other to open the door, and I must say, that I like this idea.

Very good map, I love the fact that in the area of acid pools, at the press of a button, these are gradually emptying and leave columns high and feel as if it were a combat elevator, congratulations for that. So far, PRCP Im really enjoying it. Hopefully it will continue like this and do not begin to abuse grotesquely of the revenants or chaingunners.

Oh busy with practising map15 and didn't notice these funny stuff.

Uploading is in progress.

1 hour ago, Keeper of Jericho said:

Given that I base all maps I made around being able to kill everything with the ssg, since that's how I play, I doubt that was the case because I didn't play any other maps besides my own until the project was done and released. But it was years ago and I honestly don't recall much about making TFP, besides wanting to make another map after my map 21 ended up so distorted from the original design due to vanilla constraints, hence why TFP ended up much simpler in design and layout. *shrugs* Either way, I remember finding the vanilla constraint annoying and I never did any vanilla maps since, not my style or strength.

 

 

Not much of a fan of pistol starts, true, but the map was always tested from pistol start and made ensuring the player would have enough ammo to kill everything if so. I can see how one might find shotgunning everything boring, which is fair enough if it's how you feel, but it's how I like to play my Doom, so having that bleed over into my mapping style is only to be expected. But again, was made years ago and I haven't made a map in at least three years, so it might've looked different today.

Well in my opinion the very basic of testing a map is to test if UV Max can be done. If not, the map should be considered to be unfinished.

I feel like there should be a STOP QUOTING OLD POSTS DUMBASS thing now. Also if you are the mapper of a map, please make a map how YOU want it to be made. It doesn't and it shouldn't conform to other's standards. If they don't like it, their loss.

MAP05 That Flooded Place

Well here's some nonlinearity for another pretty much short map. Not a fan of vines overall though, and not a whole lot of flood besides the central room and the yellow key area, which both have fun fights. Going through the halls in any order is fine though, the best route is to go counter-clockwise from the left side. Hitscanners will be the slowdowns mostly, although two barons at the red key area also had slowed me down considerably.

I guess I'll drop some dev notes and maybe clear some questions up. PRCP always gets compared with PL2 for obvious reasons, but it's actually a different beast altogether. Where PL2 was a hulking team project that spanned years, endless iterations and big name authors dropping in and out, PRCP was a "speed" community project that originally aimed for Plutonia's 6 month dev cycle, was open to anyone and we most definitely expected a wild rollercoaster ride of quality across the contributions.

But then many really good maps started flowing in and from the conversations with Joshy I could feel the inner testing team started sensing an unexpected opportunity, so even the weaker submissions were consequently pushed to greater lengths revision-wise, much more effort went into polish and vanilla compatibility and the dev time ballooned to slightly over a year.

At no point was there a concerted effort to produce certain style of mapping that was perhaps underrepresented, we assembled the final pwad from the hand we were dealt with. Anyway, pretty much no mapper except Joshy even knew what the representation was until the wad was released, heh. The dev thread? Yeah, uh... not nearly as informative as you may think, most of the actual development and feedback happened through PM boxes (and copying the important stuff to Joshy, to keep the project lead in touch), which in retrospect seems like complete lunacy, heh. On the flipside it did feel more personal (boooo) and to me back and forth over feedback felt warmer and less constricted than in open threads.

I'm a massive PL2 fan, but I gotta say the rag tag group of veterans and newbies both created something surprisingly good here, perhaps even consistently so. But it may be just my ego speaking. Anyway, I'm probably repeating a lot of stuff that can be listened to here, a 2 and a half hour long post-mortem podcast that took slightly over a year to edit and release, which was an Odyssey of its own.

Anyway!

map01: Stonewall by Joshy

Joshy's first contribution, meant to be the Congo-inspired started from the get-go, but it was actually the second map handed in for testing overall, because ArmouredBlood cranked out his evil bitch of a map in, like, minutes. I don't recall much ado about the balance or anything, we were happy to have such a good map to kick off the mapset with. Not sure how much of an issue VPOs have been here, because Belial was the self-designated visplane guardian, but that center looks fairly heavy on tricky vistas! Joshy and I spent time tweaking the speed route, which is intentional, because our philosophy at that point was that Plutonia without speed tricks is nothing. Actually, the original route was too easy and trivial to mention, so it was axed in favour of the YK grab, which was handily available (and only semi-intentional) as well.

map02: Temple of Cetza by pcorf

It's funny to see people hating on the (admittedly trivial) boxing parts of the map, because that's what sold the map to us back then. It was a simpler time and just plowing through a useless tide of pink was fun for us, okay?! It's even funnier, because those parts got left almost untouched, while everything else (the manco room, the central staircase, the end, basically the second half of the map) was agonizingly tweaked and rebalanced over and over. The map started as a fairly trivial, pedestrian walk in the park, but Paul was actually very responsive to feedback and in the end a lot of thought was put into the battle design... well, except the gratuitous punching parts, heh.

map03: Escape from Ghost Town by Lorenzo

I'm not a big fan of this map. I mean, it's a solid effort and anyone whining about the hitscan hell needs to realize that's just music to Joshy's ears (I only realized my terrible, terrible pun right after typing it out, but now it's too late to press backscape oh noo), but let's face it. This ain't no dtwid or a homage, this is a copycat. It twists the formula a little throughout, but never deviates far enough to provide anything original. In fact, this map is the closest one in the set to get booted, because in the final maplist assembly it competed for one last empty slot with another copycat, Philnemba's Compound remake. Both were kinda fine technically and gameplay-wise, but also kinda mehh because of the derivative aspect... in the end it went to sudden death arguments like "Ghost Town has a cool speed trick in the exit room" and "yeah about that sector swastika in Infested Compound..."

map04: Emerald Pools by C30N9 and Joshy

One of the very last submissions (perhaps even the last?!), it kinda came out of nowhere in early 2011 (the project started mid-2010). ceon's original map was prettttty raw, because he was a newbie mapper, but it showed a lot of spirit and potential for fun. Joshy kind of put ceon under his wings, guided him through the feedback/improvement rounds, fixed some clumsy constructs (the outside nukage scenario had to be reworked functionally, iirc) and applied the final photoshop airbrush. There also were plenty of monster swaps, I think the first room saw the most changes in, um, changing monster types and positions. This map is one of the most extreme cases of ideas over polish in the megawad.

^ That explains why "Stonewall" and "Emerald Pools" feel so different, at least.

Re: Jericho: You do you. I didn't have a bad time with that map, and I thought the construction of the Hell Knight trap around the yellow key was pretty clever. Philosophically, though, I do think every map should be engaging from either a continuous or pistol start if it can be. All 32 levels of the original Plutonia are, for example. (Though they have the benefit of free-flowing communication between two mappers; I get that that's less attainable for a speed community project.)

Also, it didn't come up here at all, but please, please consider saveless players (message to everyone) while testing. The game presents a level as an amount of play it expects players to clear without checkpoints. If you don't think your map plays well that way, at whatever level of challenge you've envisioned, break it up! Don't make me cheat my way out of boredom. If you expect your target skill level of player is going to be sent back to the beginning repeatedly, aim to make the encounters at the beginning brisk, improvable and fun. Try to make the whole map a constant challenge, rather than clean-up or incidental encounters punctuated by only occasional difficult traps. (Again, the origInal Plutonia is a stellar example of this balance, and that's part of why I love it.) (PSA done.)

1 hour ago, NuMetalManiak said:

Also if you are the mapper of a map, please make a map how YOU want it to be made. It doesn't and it shouldn't conform to other's standards. If they don't like it, their loss.

Maps aren't made in a vacuum though; people post and display their work because they hope or expect, on some level, for others to enjoy it. Listening to feedback and rethinking the structure of your map is really useful for developing as a mapper (and artist), even if you ultimately disagree in the end. Like, people are free to make whatever they want, but if you're submitting something to a community project and 5/6 playtesters say your map is unrefined, slow, or too SSG-heavy, the problem might lie with the author, not the audience.

map03 fda

add me to the 'didnt enjoy too much because thinking of the original' crowd. also this map feels somehow smaller, although i actually think the footprint is bigger than the PL map.

i did think the fleshy AV/chaingunner bit looked pretty neat; the only place it trumped its predecessor