Secrets that get blocked off?

I'm sorry if you don't understand what I meant by the title so I'll explain it a bit more.

In my case I have a trio of secrets that's really closely related to each other. I'll refer to them as A), B) and C).

There is a switch that opens up a new area in the map and you can find a small, tight passage to B) where an armor and a berserk are. If you find a secret switch on the other side of the map, stairs will rise, blocking you from entering B), but enabling you to get to C) where there is some ammo. You can also get to a watery area only that way, but there's nothing there unless you find A) and flip a switch to raise a Soulsphere there. I don't know if that's good, heh.

Other examples that actually don't lead to another secret are MAP18 (?) of Memento Mori, where stairs block a secret armor once they raise. Also, a more extreme case is in E2M5 of DTWID, where, if you don't choose the right path in an intersection, it shuts forever and you cannot get the secret exit.

Anyway, what is your opinion on such secrets that get blocked off in map progression?

I hate them. I hate when completionism can be thwarted by exploring incorrectly. I think it's cheap and stupid and not enjoyable.

Sounds cool to me. Especially if you make me choose in between powerups or something when I play the map again. Just make sure I can get 100% secrets somehow.

13 minutes ago, insertwackynamehere said:

I hate them. I hate when completionism can be thwarted by exploring incorrectly. I think it's cheap and stupid and not enjoyable.

As for Naza, I like the idea as well, but you should do things like this regardless of whether it's considered "good" or "acceptable Doom mapping" or not. Crowdsourced opinions are unreliable because everything has its dissenters. Some hate puzzles, some love the single-shotgun, some find cacodemons ugly .  . . the Doom community is a big stew of diverse tastes. Ultimately you have to do what you like.

I like when the choices a player makes in terms of when they play what fight, when they pick up which item, or when they kill which enemy has meaning. Especially if it's risk/reward based, like having to keep something alive so you can grab something good later in exchange for having had a tougher fight previously or so. And yes, I like it when the player can screw up entirely, but that's because my attitude is that some maps, especially those that employ the "quirky" methods, are worth being studied a bit better.

I generally don't like when areas that contain something that counts to the kill/item/secret percentages get permanently blocked off. I'm OK with areas being temporarily blocked off until the end of the level is nearly reached.

Actually this sounds like a neat trick for secrets. Some form of puzzle-solving within the level to reveal more secret areas sounds like my kinda thing, I might even try this out myself, and see how it goes. Not so sure about blocking off a secret in turn for another secret, but overall, sounds good.

do this more, i like revisiting my favourite levels

1 hour ago, rdwpa said:

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Let's recap the first two posts in the thread.

> Anyway, what is your opinion on such secrets that get blocked off in map progression?

> I hate them. I hate when completionism can be thwarted by exploring incorrectly. I think it's cheap and stupid and not enjoyable.

Choices are cool, but one-time secrets on their own are very lame imo 

I dislike one-time secrets.  Though, I can tolerate them as long as I don't miss the cue that it was blocked off, and then wander for over an hour trying to find that last secret in vain.

For example, @Jaska is working on a megawad of cool, big atmospheric maps.  The maps were fun for secret hunting.  But several maps in, there is/was a map with a secret that closes off if you hit the wrong switch.  On top of that, the switch was placed alongside a another switch, so I just mashed them both and looked for map progression.  I never realized the closing door.  I kept playing and eventually reached the end of the level, and I decided to turn back and explore for 100% secrets.  I basically just wandered around forever.  I eventually gave up and resorted to doombuilder, and saw what happened.  I wouldn't want to seem like I'm discouraging this particular type of secret, You-do-you, but that's not gonna stop me from complaining about it.

On the other hand, there's @AD_79; @Breezeep's Mutiny map.  One of the powerups (a soulsphere maybe?) requires dropping down onto a ledge, but the ledge isn't visible until you get further into the level.  Maybe it's just the way my brain interacted with this level (as opposed to the previous one I mentioned), but it was much more obvious that soulsphere was probably a missed opportunity.  So, at the end of the level when I see one secret left, I just looked at that Soulsphere and said "darn, I guess that was it.  probably had to get that one before it's path closed off".  And then I exited the level.  It felt disappointing to not get it, but satisfying to learn about it at the same time.

---

Now about the other half of the topic, not to be confused about my secret-hunting gripe, but which is the mutually-exclusive choice thing.  I usually like those quite a lot actually.

Secrets that can't be reached from the end suck, unless the map has a point of no return that keeps you from backtracking anyway, but that's a completely different beast.

I hate being sealed off from the rest of the level, at any point. Well, there goes those supplies I was saving, there goes those secrets I didn't get around to, there goes entire side areas that went unexplored. I've actually gotten so annoyed with this I've restarted completely and then save before the bullshit part, just in case.

MAP27: Monster Condo has that one secret that becomes inaccessible after 30 seconds after the map starts, and I didn't know about the secret until a couple years ago because what most levels have taught me prior is that it's possible to revisit some areas and find some secrets you have missed. So for a map to suddenly have a secret that you can only access once (and near the end of the game might I add) under a certain circumstance threw me off a bit from what I originally learned in the main game.

Now for custom maps, I kind of keep an eye for one-time secrets or just areas I can only visit once as while I don't mind them as much anymore, I still find myself annoyed when whole areas get blocked after triggering an event of some sort, especially if there's some enemies, resources, or just interesting places I haven't explored yet and I have been meaning to return to said area for that.

1st map of Espi's "Back 2 Basics" (for Ultimate Doom's e2m1 slot) has a secret like that.  

I usually mess up the ones where you step on a floor and it raises, but only once.  My instinctive reaction tends to be to run backwards when something like that unexpectedly activates, in anticipation of a trap, and by the time I realize you were supposed to stay there and ride it up, it's too late.

It doesn't bother me a lot honestly, because I tend to miss an area here and there and leave them unexplored if the complexity of the level is too great or it's too big, and I am not aiming for 100% for everything anyway, not in a game like Doom, and especially not for secrets as I almost always end up missing some of them on my way. It only ever poses a problem when I'm in need of something important or just to patch myself up, but, should that be the case, well, bad luck I suppose, I'll do better next time around when I also have the proper knowledge.

However, getting sealed off of entire sections or exits at some point due to making a wrong decision is something I'm definitely not a fan of, and I'm not exactly sure it actually adds something that is trully meaningful to the overall experience and not just frustration for making a bad move and being totally unaware of its consequences, as it requires prior knowledge. It'd be especially terrible for a first, blind playthrough.

I don't really care about secrets, My goal was always to just reach the exit, maybe do little bit of exploration just to get enough ammo and stuff, eventhough I occasionally find secrets while doing but I don't really bother trying to find them, Maybe because I'm not a completionist so it doesn't bother me.

not really a fan of them. it doesn't make my blood boil or anything, but i'll more than likely just cheat to get to the walled-off secret after realizing it's permanently locked.

Nah , it doesn't bother me that much really. If I find a way to get to the secret then great but honestly I'm just grateful to get to the exit door.

They're not my favorite, but I can live with them. The only time I'll go out of my way to circumvent a timed secret is if it blocks access to a secret map.

I suppose you mean three distinct secrets and not three tagged as the same one, is the second option possible?... Anyway, for instance, I personally don't like to be forbidden to tag a secret just because I went the wrong way, though it's passable if I can replay the map and learn the correct way. Now when it becomes impossible to tag all the secrets no matter what you do, I don't find that good design, because it takes away the opportunity to max or 100% everything (kills and secrets in particular), which is important for a lot of players, including myself.

IMO it's interesting to have the chance to choose what is best for any situation, because that not only can be completed the way many players like to, but also adds replay value for new strategies, so probably those sectors should not be tagged as secrets, or tagged and designed in a way the player can reach to them all in different points of the map (e.g. you can choose C early, close B and later be able to go back to it from another point of the map, balancing the rewards so the player finds suitable any secret at any point). 

Ultimately I think timed secrets can exist just fine as long as the player is given an option to open them up later on, incase he messes up.

On 12/31/2017 at 6:36 PM, cyan0s1s said:

I hate being sealed off from the rest of the level, at any point. Well, there goes those supplies I was saving, there goes those secrets I didn't get around to, there goes entire side areas that went unexplored. I've actually gotten so annoyed with this I've restarted completely and then save before the bullshit part, just in case.

DOOM 2016 is a big offender of this. 

On 1/1/2018 at 5:19 AM, dmg_64 said:

I don't really care about secrets, My goal was always to just reach the exit, maybe do little bit of exploration just to get enough ammo and stuff, eventhough I occasionally find secrets while doing but I don't really bother trying to find them, Maybe because I'm not a completionist so it doesn't bother me.

You have a very nonchalant style of playing Mr Freeman. 

On 1/1/2018 at 11:44 AM, PizzaGuy said:

Nah , it doesn't bother me that much really. If I find a way to get to the secret then great but honestly I'm just grateful to get to the exit door.

He just wants to finish the level before his pizza gets cold !!

On 1/2/2018 at 2:37 AM, Alter said:

Ultimately I think timed secrets can exist just fine as long as the player is given an option to open them up later on, incase he messes up.

What are your thoughts on Monster Condo's timed secret in DOOM II ?