Why does everybody misinterpret what old school fps games like Doom are?

It's not about special effects, and it's not about polycount. It's about models looking like they were created by inexperienced artists.

Which is fine, I guess, because everyone has to start somewhere.

I haven't played Dusk, so take this with a grain of salt, but how many FPS games with "oldschool influences" have been released on the last few years, and how many of them have actually been praised? Dusk getting so much attention can't be just a product of people being stupid.

9 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Why does everybody misinterpret what old school fps games like Doom are?

Not everybody, you just cannot look stuff up. Here is REAL oldschool non-linear FPS by me:

This thread has tipped the scales and now I'm gonna have to buy DUSK and play it for myself.

@hardcore_gamer, you desperately need to learn how Doom works.

What actually *IS* a classic FPS game?

Just comparing the games of the 5 years after Doom shows such a huge variety that 'classic' alone really doesn't mean much.

And if you think about it, Quake changed the underlying paradigm a lot. Anything post Quake was using models which required quite different game mechanics because displaying this many models. And for some reason this is what most people consider 'classic FPS'.

17 minutes ago, Xaser said:

intentional overjank of the weapon/enemy models

I'm not sure it was intentional, exactly.

8 minutes ago, Jerry.C said:

What actually *IS* a classic FPS game?

Well, therein lies the problem I suppose, since there's probably a certain degree of disagreement on such (I've seen Half-Life and Doom 3 both mentioned in this thread and I would consider both of those to belong to a post "golden age" era).  To me the characteristic big three would be Doom (2), Quake, and Duke Nukem 3D, and some of the important/unifying characteristics would be:

- Exploration.  You have to find keys, you have to find health and ammo and weapons.  There are secrets, there are side areas that exist to get more supplies from.  Levels are more than just a series of big arenas with a bunch of monsters.  Levels actually exist as something more than the output of a pseudorandom generator.

- Your character works like an action hero, with little concern for realism-based restrictions.  You can run fast.  You can carry a bucketload of guns and ammo with no penalty for doing so, and you're never expected to hit a "reload weapon" key.  Getting wounded doesn't penalize you until you're outright dead.

- Emphasis on action over story or a "cinematic experience", friendly NPCs are pretty much nonexistent or at most minimal, cutscenes happen only at the end of an episode.

- Scoring based on level completion.  You get an end of level report according to enemies killed / items found / secrets found and time.  You're thereby further encouraged to fully case the level and eliminate all enemies / collect all resources, and can know if you missed anything.

In those regards, Doom and Quake and Duke (as well as the likes of Wolf 3D, Heretic, Shadow Warrior and Blood) have more to unify than to divide them, and are characteristics that set them apart from the Half-Life/Doom 3 generation where the idea of a level to fully explore and clear became secondary to following a plot; or the other splits into "multiplayer is all that matters" types like Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament, or the Serious Sam/Painkiller branch that rejected being story oriented or multiplayer-focused but seem to have embraced the idea that exploration was no longer important--I think this is the source of a lot of the disagreement, since both Serious Sam and Painkiller have been hailed in their time as revivals of the oldschool style despite the changes in level design priorities.

Obviously, even back in the day there were games that were pulling in different directions, and someone may disagree saying that Rise of the Triad had weapon restrictions, and Hexen and Strife didn't care about level scores, and Blake Stone had friendlies, but I think those (or those elements/lack thereof) are usually not what's being thought of when people talk about the general zeitgeist of the "classic FPS" as opposed to any other sort.

(I'd also argue that being able to make and share custom levels was an important part of the oldschool FPS zeitgeist, but it seems a bit secondary to the discussion of whether or not a new game captures what they played like.)

I feel like with DUSK the dev is trying to create a game that could have existed in the late nineties. To do this he needed to look at the types of games that were popular back then, and obviously he was going to be looking to the best that the nineties has to offer. He wanted to create an FPS, so naturally he's going to take influence from games like Doom, Quake, Blood, Heretic, etc. But instead of simply just making a game reminiscent of those, he actually tried to give it its own unique identity that works on its own even if you aren't familiar with the game's influences.

I bought DUSK the minute after I saw Gggman's review of episode one and I do not regret anything. I love it. The game does its best to trigger any nostalgia the player might have, but to be honest I think the game is so well designed that it would still be awesome for me if I had no nostalgia for those things anyway. The gameplay is fast-paced, the enemy types are all unique and require special tactics in order to defeat efficiently, only the player has access to hitscanning weapons (which to be honest I think DUSK could maybe use at least one hitscanning enemy type, simply because those require their own tactics different from projectiles) and the level design in my opinion does more with less and honestly these are the types of levels I'd make if I weren't so shit at mapping most of the time.

If this game just doesn't do it for you then I really don't see your problem with other people enjoying it. You hated the first two levels of the game and refunded it afterwards? Fine. I don't really care. You can move on to a different game that you will hopefully enjoy more. Criticizing people for liking the game and backing up your reasoning by stating that the game's well-executed features are actually flaws makes absolutely no sense to me. I can't stand the gameplay in RTS games but I don't criticize people for liking them. I have seen practically nothing in DUSK I find to be objectively bad. I haven't even played STRAFE and I already know that that game's retro influences end with it's art style (the retro theme of it's art style isn't executed very well anyway), so that game honestly can't be justifiably called retro in every aspect like I've seen in its reviews. Yes, there are many people who don't understand the fundamentals of what makes a 'retro' FPS, but in DUSK's case this isn't problematic because DUSK does exactly what it claims to do and more, and from everything I've played I can't wait until we get episode three.

I respectfully disagree, and here's why:

Horrible Graphics is an opinion, so you cannot argue that.

Here is the the enemy average of Doom 1 Episodes, on Hurt me Plenty, and no secret levels included:
Knee Deep: 58.5 per map
Shores of Hell: 68.875 per map
Inferno: 55.5 per map
Flesh Consumed: 79 per map

Those are no numbers to scoff at, quite a bit of demon hide per each episodes 8 (non-secret) maps! Seeing numbers like this better help see how such a belief started. I mean, 58 per level on the FIRST episode? Sounds ridiculous, until you play it.

On the keycard hunting, I think that one has some merit, as they aren't on the minimaps, and sometimes have rather odd placement. Nothing terrable, but just odd.

Doom isn't a game I would say is mindless, but is rather a zone of sorts. You quickly get into the zone, and decisions become fluent and natural, which may sound mindless, but is more of a zen like state, where there is a harmony behind unloading a Super Shotgun into the Archvile the milisecond it appears. Doom doesn't demand too much, but doesn't let you go wild either. A good example is in the encounter designs, which I will agree with you on are well thought out (most of the time). Also, the puzzles in doom most of the time were the keycard hunt (because not everyone knows were they are instantly), or flipping switches in hopes of not opening the wall behind you filled with Imps. This isn't to call them terrable or anything, but considering what kind of game Doom is, it works.

Now, the main meat of this post I disagree with, the attacks on Dusk. The level design of Duck is far from terrible, giving a healthy dosage of variance and setting, making levels stand out. Comparing it to Half Life is a good example, where you can see the loops of design, and the mixing of tight halls and open arenas. Also, a small team is behind Dusk, not ID software, fully of vets' who pumped out the 3 most recognizable FPS of all time, so of course setting up to such a standard won't end well. Also, while the models may not look as good (personally, the enemies look the oddest, but the weapons and that god damn atmosphere is perfect), it needs to be kept in mind that Dusk probably doesn't have professional artists behind it, and doesn't look so bad I need to beach my eyes. At minimum it is passable. Also, a tad bit ironic that you don't like people judging the graphics of older games, then make a point to rail on Dusk's own?

Also, your opinion that Dusk would fail if released in the 90's is based off so many factors it would take a whole new discussion to explore.

Ultimately, the misconceptions of older FPS is simply due to common belief and ignorance, but isn't materialized from nothing. Also, I'll have you know I have never played Dusk myself, but have seen enough to make form opinions on it.

I just thought of something else I should add.

While most people are comparing the game to Quake, which does have objectively higher quality character models in most cases, it just occurred to me that DUSK's character models are on about the same level of quality as Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II's (man that's a weird way to title a sequel).

Whilst I don't think this similarity in quality was intentional, you can't say that DUSK has worse looking graphics compared to most well known FPS games of the time. I personally love the level of detail that DUSK uses, it fits the gameplay perfectly in my opinion.

6 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Modern FPS shooters have much more open area than 90s shooters. It is not like Doom or Quake. Most modern shooters focus on higher difficulty than those 90s shooters.

He must work for CNN. 

7 hours ago, dmg_64 said:

I thought Doom 2016 is a mindless shooter (not that this is a bad thing), granted it takes a little bit of effort to think of tactics in the fighting arenas the game is filled with and possibly little bit of extra effort to find optional secrets that most people are likely not going to bother with but it's pretty much an on-rails adventure compared to it's predecessors, it doesn't take so much thinking.

Excuse me Mr Gordon Freeman but DOOM 2016 offered a fair share of exploration & secret hunting. Some of them were quite hard to uncover especially the classic level levers. DOOM 2016 is far from a rail adventure. 

5 minutes ago, MK-ULTRA said:

DOOM 2016 offered a fair share of exploration & secret hunting. Some of them were quite hard to uncover especially the classic level levers. DOOM 2016 is far from a rail adventure. 

I must have been sleeping during my run through it because I never stopped for a moment to search for keys or switches, everything was on a rail (except the foundry), besides the hidden secrets that I generally don't bother with.

5 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

I must have been sleeping during my run through it because I never stopped for a moment to search for keys or switches, everything was on a rail (except the foundry), besides the hidden secrets that I generally don't bother with.

You choosing to play it as a rail shooter does not make it one. There's a lot of adventure to be had if you go secret hunting Mr Freeman. 

4 minutes ago, MK-ULTRA said:

There's a lot of adventure to be had if you go secret hunting Mr Freeman. 

Secrets ? No thanks.

A linear arena shooter with secrets is just that: a linear arena shooter with secrets.

Though it's admittedly considerably better than a linear arena shooter without secrets.

The real problem that "new retro FPS" games have is that they offer no good reason for me to play them instead of Doom or Quake. IMO Dusk looks like a mediocre Quake clone so why would I want to play it? Not going to spend money one something that deliberately isn't innovating. 

25 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

The real problem that "new retro FPS" games have is that they offer no good reason for me to play them instead of Doom or Quake. IMO Dusk looks like a mediocre Quake clone so why would I want to play it? Not going to spend money one something that deliberately isn't innovating. 

Just a heads up for you: This was exactly what I thought until I actually played Dusk. But damn, Dusk man - it's something else. It takes a few levels to get warm to it but then holy cacodemon if it doesn't become a satisfying ride. Putting Dusk within the "new retro FPS" genre feels almost insulting even though it's technically correct.

It's also not entirely without innovation if that's your concern. The campaign feels fresh because levels have a direction and purpose, Episode 2 in particular, and it's not afraid to fuck with the player.

Dusk is the closest by far to actually getting classic style level design right out of any game I've played that has claimed to be classic styled. I particularly really appreciate that it actually avoids the tired "locked in arena until every monster is dead" gameplay that other so-called classic styled FPSs love repeatedly using.

12 hours ago, pulkmees said:

I haven't played it, but based of Gggmanlives reviews, the first episode IS kinda mediocre in terms of level design. Second episode is better.

Only 1 guy making the whole thing as well. This makes it seem like reviewing a doom/quake total conversion.

I'd say Dusk is definitely better than Strafe.

 

Not a huge fan of quake style graphics myself, Doom guy myself, just like them more cute. Dusk def has a more quake feel to them, since the enemies are bulky like in..quake or half-life.

Gameplay seems to be good, thats what matters.

 

fun fact all the enemies use a similar amount of polygons as quake 

second thing is that the dev team consists of david for the SP

3-5 devs working on the mp they are mostly the NB mods

and then zombie is working on the modding tools mostly from what i can tell it will be very friendly to doom modders and quake mappers

there is also lots of fun roles for each weapon my favorite weapon has to be the crossbow for the tricks you can perform with it not to mention how teleporters function 
 

16 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Games like Doom and Quake are not as mindless as they are made out to be.

DOOM doesn't require critical thinking, all you do is shoot demons and get keycards.

Playing difficult Doom maps featuring a wide variety of enemies and encounters or playing Doom maps featuring memory-based puzzles and such certainly do require some degree of thought. I wouldn't exactly call it critical thinking, but it is decidedly not mindless.

20 minutes ago, Teabλg_Johnson said:

DOOM doesn't require critical thinking, all you do is shoot demons and get keycards.

Get a load of this guy

Fuck this entire thread

18 minutes ago, wheresthebeef said:

Fuck this entire thread

No this is gonna be great

@hardcore_gamer because they were born in the wrong decade.

Because kids are too busy stuffing their faces full of CoD to remember how it was back then.

5 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

The real problem that "new retro FPS" games have is that they offer no good reason for me to play them instead of Doom or Quake. IMO Dusk looks like a mediocre Quake clone so why would I want to play it? Not going to spend money one something that deliberately isn't innovating. 

Who said it had to reinvent the wheel? What's wrong with just having more of what we like in the present day? I liked (at the time) that I got a modern Postal 1 with Hatred, and then Carmageddon: Reincarnation/Max Damage, and now DUSK looks like it's going to scratch that Quake itch. Yeah, it's not Quake, or Doom, but it could be the next best thing. They're going to be rolling out an editor and workshop support, so mapping and modding the game is going to be a high priority, of which constitutes part of the fundamentals of what makes a classic FPS game or not, besides having solid game feel, great feedback and a memorable cast of weapons and enemies.