Cacodemon345 Posted January 21, 2018 MIDI is a broken mess even in programs. SF2 support is tacky in popular cross-platform MIDI synths. 0 Share this post Link to post
Jon Posted January 21, 2018 MIDI is an old established standard and does what it's designed to do very well: so well that it survived the transition into the USB era pretty much untouched. SF2 is not the same thing as MIDI. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Jerry.C said: Effectively MIDI had a very short lifespan as a viable music format - roughly from 1993-1997. The first game with a MIDI soundtrack were for the MT-32, which predates the General MIDI standard. King's Quest IV, released in 1988, might have been the first game with MIDI music. The General MIDI standard was published in 1991 and would quickly supplant MT-32, since it wasn't limited to just one vendor. The VGMPF has a sample table of 20 games with MIDI soundtrack, ranging from 1990 with Prince of Persia to 1999 with Age of Empire II. So, a big decade for MIDI. 1 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Jerry.C said: A closer look at the MIDI API in Windows clearly tells us that it was never really designed for software playback, it has such weird requirements on setting up the data which only make sense if its use with external hardware is required. So people will waste their money on Roland HW synths? 0 Share this post Link to post
Jon Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said: SF2 is an soundfont for MIDI. Perhaps go back and read what I wrote more carefully, because your reply does not refute it. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said: SF2 is an soundfont for MIDI. No. SF2 is a format for soundfonts. It's not "an soundfont"; just like "html" isn't a webpage. Don't confuse a format with things using that format. Furthermore, SF2 isn't for MIDI, it's to be used by synthesizers (originally, E-mu synths). That the synths in question use MIDI is not in itself a necessary requirement for them using SF2 sound banks. In fact you can easily find other systems that can use SF2 soundfonts, such as module trackers for example. That MIDI support could be better doesn't mean that MIDI itself is broken. It works fine for what it is and is still used professionally for its original intended purposes. It's just these purposes did not include game soundtracks. 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 I didn't mean that. I meant that SF2 is an soundfont format for MIDI. 0 Share this post Link to post
minigunner Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) Soundfont synths aren't fun to work with; particularly if you're making soundfonts or using them for more than just playing back MIDIs. For example, BASSMIDI is the most popular SF2 synth, but it is a disappointment for its status. Particularly, there are issues with MIDI events outside the standard roster, as well as some inconsistencies in how instrument/preset properties are applied. To top it off, it's based off of the SF2 2.0 spec; in the meantime, the 2.01 spec introduces modulators that greatly increase the customization of instruments (such as having a more muffled tone the lower the velocity), then there's 2.04 that supports 24-bit samples (not that important but yeah). FluidSynth, on the other hand, supports the newer spec, but it's not as popular and it runs on some issues of its own. 0 Share this post Link to post
Woolie Wool Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) Meanwhile you could "waste your money" on a hardware synth like I did when buying a Roland SC-55 MkII and get a MIDI device that plays virtually all MIDI files a Doom and/or DOS games fan might encounter without problems and sounds better than any soundfont approximation. But sure, this thing that does its job demonstrably and overwhelmingly better than all of its rivals is a "waste of money". Whatever you say. 1 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 MIDI support could be better for us early FPS gamers. It is unfortunate to see it decline. Microsoft already broke MIDI playback in a recent Win10 update, and cross-platform MIDI synths using SF2 also have problems. Some soundfonts designed to make full use of SF2 has problems in Timidity++, while other soundfonts will make Fluidsynth crash. @Woolie Wool, did you gave an expensive amount of dollars for this? 0 Share this post Link to post
Woolie Wool Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) Well it could be better but the only people who want to make it better are retro game dorks who matter so little to Microsoft's finances as to be totally irrelevant. There's no money to be made improving Windows MIDI support, so it won't happen. That's the way capitalism works. As for the price of the SC-55, the device itself cost around $100 and the MIDI to USB interface cost $40 (there are cheaper ones but the cheap one I had broke in very short order). 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 15 minutes ago, Woolie Wool said: Meanwhile you could "waste your money" on a hardware synth like I did when buying a Roland SC-55 MkII and get a MIDI device that plays virtually all MIDI files a Doom and/or DOS games fan might encounter without problems and sounds better than any soundfont approximation. Agreed. 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Woolie Wool said: As for the price of the SC-55, the device itself cost around $100 and the MIDI to USB interface cost $40 (there are cheaper ones but the cheap one I had broke in very short order). Short lifespan? 0 Share this post Link to post
RightField Posted January 22, 2018 Roland also has a sound canvas plugin out these days so you can import midis into your daw and export to mp3s that sound 100% correctly on any computer. 0 Share this post Link to post
Varis Alpha Posted January 22, 2018 it doesn't sound "100% correctly" though, from what i've heard. particularly, if you were expecting to get a perfect recreation of the SC-55 sound, then you're better off buying the real thing like i did, because Sound Canvas VA supposedly doesn't sound like it should, and a few of the instruments are based off the later SC-88 instead. SC-55s aren't particularly expensive for being vintage sound modules, and a lot of them tend to be refurbished for that price as well. 0 Share this post Link to post
Percival232 Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) I Mean Midis For Gaming In Operating Systems Have Declined But Im Pretty Sure For Audio Production, Midis Are Pretty Well Supported. But I Dunno Im Not Really Informed So Correct Me If Im Wrong 1 Share this post Link to post
TheUltimateDoomer666 Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) Sound Canvas VA emulates an SC-8820, which happens to have an SC-55 mode, but even then it still sounds different from the real SC-55. The only way to get an authentic SC-55 sound is to use an actual hardware SC-55. Here's an example with the Briefing music from Descent II: 0:00 is hardware SC-55 (recorded by MusicallyInspired). This is the original "correct" SC-55 sound. 1:34 is Sound Canvas VA in SC-55 mode. Notice how the synth strings do not sound right. 3:12 is an 8 MB wavetable from a Creative VIBRA128/AudioPCI card. I am yet to hear any software synthesizer or soundfont that accurately emulates all of the SC-55 patches, especially when it comes to the "synthy" patches. Heck, even that 8 MB AudioPCI sound card bank sounds a lot more interesting than a lot of soundfonts, which tend to have pretty bland or monotonous sounding synth patches. More comparisons, this time with DOOM music (I've posted this before in some older threads): 1 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 27 minutes ago, TheUltimateDoomer666 said: The only way to get an authentic SC-55 sound is to use an actual hardware SC-55. I cannot waste money at this. 0 Share this post Link to post
therektafire Posted January 22, 2018 5 hours ago, minigunner said: Soundfont synths aren't fun to work with; particularly if you're making soundfonts or using them for more than just playing back MIDIs. For example, BASSMIDI is the most popular SF2 synth, but it is a disappointment for its status. Particularly, there are issues with MIDI events outside the standard roster, as well as some inconsistencies in how instrument/preset properties are applied. To top it off, it's based off of the SF2 2.0 spec; in the meantime, the 2.01 spec introduces modulators that greatly increase the customization of instruments (such as having a more muffled tone the lower the velocity), then there's 2.04 that supports 24-bit samples (not that important but yeah). FluidSynth, on the other hand, supports the newer spec, but it's not as popular and it runs on some issues of its own. Hm, maybe I should try to pester the developer of Droidsound E to ditch bassmidi and use fluidsynth for the midi plugin for the app instead. Then again I doubt he would listen, he pulled it off the play store over a year and a half ago for some strange reason and only does minor silent incremental updates on his github every so often... 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 FluidSynth is unusable with some soundfonts, but Timidity++ also runs on issues with full SF2 soundfonts. 0 Share this post Link to post
Jon Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) I'd actually be interested in picking up an external MIDI synth for noodling around with, not just for old games but for music making too. I haven't begun to investigate what to get; an SC-55 or something similar. I've got an old SB Audigy external something-or-other that I could use to drive one; I'm not sure if it has a MIDI synth in it itself too, I'm struggling to find specs online for it right now (I'll have to double check it's specific model number tonight). I suppose I should explore driving my existing synths via Doom and see how it sounds (an Alesis Micron and A Novation Xiosynth, both for sale by the way). but I've no idea (yet) whether those two synths have the relevant instrument mappings. They're designed for independent use, really. The Micron is really quite nice, but I lack the time/space/expertise to really get the most out of it. Anyone fancy recommending SC-55 alternatives? 0 Share this post Link to post
Woolie Wool Posted January 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said: I cannot waste money at this. Yet you would buy Roland's Sound Canvas VA, which is almost as expensive and is vastly inferior? 1 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 Compared to buying multiple Sound Canvases, I will still buy Roland Sound Canvas VA. Then I can switch map modes at my leisure. I cannot waste extra money to plug in the real Sound Canvas into my PC through USB ports. 0 Share this post Link to post
Woolie Wool Posted January 22, 2018 Why would you need to buy multiple Sound Canvas units? I have one and it's fine. You plug it in via the Roland UM-ONE and it works. 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 Because I would prefer to use MIDI to USB interface. My new PC doesn't have MPU-401 port support. 0 Share this post Link to post