Matthias Posted January 22, 2018 I noticed that someone from time to time mentions how specifically Doom 2 maps suck. Especially in the topic about Doom 64 it was mentioned many times. What does it mean? Does it simply means the maps in Doom (1993) was better than Doom II Hell on Earth (1994) ? And if they are so bad, what is bad about them exactly? I don't get it and I am really curious :) 1 Share this post Link to post
Soundblock Posted January 22, 2018 I don't think they suck, but whereas original Doom depicted a more fully realised, abstract/imaginary, setting (space colonies, hell) Doom 2 set out to visualise earth itself, a place everyone has some familiarity with and plenty of visual references to. This was always a tall order for the Doom engine, if a natural progression for the storyline. That, and perhaps the id team wasn't as on-fire inspired when they made it? American is widely recognised to have made the best maps for Doom 2, and he was a fresh employee cutting his teeth on the engine, much as the initial designers were on the original. Another factor is that many players' first, strongest, impressions of Doom are from the original game. Ultimate Doom's fourth episode was added after Doom II though, so I'm leaning towards the space/hell setting just being more suitable for Doom engine maps being a deciding factor. I mean, the "Downtown" map from Doom II for one, clearly sets out to do more than it achieves, by virtue of its map name alone. 16 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 The earth levels suck. They don't contain as much detail as Doom 1 had. TNT Evilution avoids that problem by detailing maps. 0 Share this post Link to post
Matthias Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) Just now, Cacodemon345 said: The earth levels suck. They don't contain as much detail as Doom 1 had. TNT Evilution avoids that problem by detailing maps. What kind of details are we speaking of? 4 Share this post Link to post
snapshot Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) Feels like they just gave up and said fuck it and started working on the game with a limited textures set, the biggest offender being the MAP13 Downtown, which doesn't even look like a town, sometimes makes me think they just wanted to grab the money while they can in the shadow of the First game's success, though at least we got the Super Shotgun so there's that. 4 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Matthias said: What kind of details are we speaking of? Texturing details. 0 Share this post Link to post
Jayextee Posted January 22, 2018 IMO the best thing they coulda done for Doom 2 in general would be to bin the entire original texture set and create a new one specifically-tailored to the Mars and Earth levels. However, as a game developer myself, I know how asset re-use can be a life-saver, especially when deadlines are closer than they appear in a rear-view mirror. 7 Share this post Link to post
Grain of Salt Posted January 22, 2018 I wonder if anyone has made this thread before 7 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 Just now, Grain of Salt said: I wonder if anyone has made this thread before *keeps wondering* 0 Share this post Link to post
Matthias Posted January 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Grain of Salt said: I wonder if anyone has made this thread before oh... don't tell me you discuss this topic at least twice a month 0 Share this post Link to post
Grain of Salt Posted January 22, 2018 Ya, there are many "why does doom 2 suck"/"which do you prefer out of doom 1 and 2" threads. I would link to some but the forum search was extremely slow so I gave up. 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 I wonder why it is told that Doom 2 suck. Like I said, the earth levels suck. 0 Share this post Link to post
Matthias Posted January 22, 2018 Just now, Grain of Salt said: Ya, there are many "why does doom 2 suck"/"which do you prefer out of doom 1 and 2" threads. I would link to some but the forum search was extremely slow so I gave up. Oh, sorry about that 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 It is better to discuss in this thread. We don't want to necro old topics. 3 Share this post Link to post
Grain of Salt Posted January 22, 2018 Doom 2 is better than 1, incidentally. *locks thread* 6 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Grain of Salt said: Doom 2 is better than 1, incidentally. How? 0 Share this post Link to post
Matthias Posted January 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Cacodemon345 said: How? Well it has Chasm and Downtown most favorite maps of the Doomword community 6 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 Just now, Matthias said: most favorite maps of the Doomword community Those are actually least favourite maps. Are you joking? 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 Just now, dmg_64 said: Nah man, He's dead serious. While he jokes. 0 Share this post Link to post
SPFreely Posted January 22, 2018 I think there are a good few maps on Doom 2 that are way too short imo, notable examples include Underhalls, The Gantlet and The Focus. Considering that levels such as Command Control, Containment Area, Pandemonium and House of Pain (within the first half of their respective episodes) in Ultimate Doom were reasonably long, there is just no excuse. It must've been expected that gamers progressing onto Doom 2 mastered Ultimate Doom already, so why scale back the difficulty? Apart from enemy placement on UltraViolence, there is nothing challenging about Doom 2 up to Tricks and Traps (at a stretch). 0 Share this post Link to post
geo Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, dmg_64 said: Feels like they just gave up and said fuck it and started working on the game with a limited textures set, the biggest offender being the MAP13 Downtown, which doesn't even look like a town, sometimes makes me think they just wanted to grab the money while they can in the shadow of the First game's success, though at least we got the Super Shotgun so there's that. Well they were a shovelware company before Wolfenstien 3D. While I do dearly love Doom II, it feels like a lot of early PC games where the sequel was the first game with a few extra bells and whistles to make the original obsolete (other than the levels being different). Enemy art wasn't just similar... it was the same. They released it 9 months after the original. If they didn't, technology would catch up, bypass them and they'd lose that money. As for the topic. I think the maps were fine. When the maps were fresh 20 years ago there were a few head scratchers. The further the game goes, the more it becomes a big jumble in my memory. I remember the themes more than the maps. That too was an early trope of the shareware days where the early maps were by far the best and memorable. Edited January 22, 2018 by geo 4 Share this post Link to post
bonnie Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) I know this is just a bait thread based on how trolly OP is acting, but yeah Doom 2 is pretty bad. The ssg and new enemies are nice, but they don't come even remotely close to making up for the complete lack of level design (aside from map01 and a map or two at the end). It seemed more like they threw it together just to sell it again, incidentally (perhaps purposely) adding new stuff that would greatly benefit modding. It's not the worst ever (that goes to TNT and Doom 64, though TNT does have a handful of decent levels), but it doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Doom 1 or Plutonia and whatnot. 0 Share this post Link to post
Matthias Posted January 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, bonnie said: I know this is just a bait thread based on how trolly OP is acting Excuse me? 1 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 Anything before The Factory is pretty good, except The Pit and The Crusher. Anything after that is pretty bad. 0 Share this post Link to post
Jayextee Posted January 22, 2018 Joke: Doom 2 sux, Doom 1 superior Woke: The Plutonia Experiment is the real Doom 2. Broke: I can't afford a Doom. 6 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted January 22, 2018 I think some of the negativity toward it comes from nostalgia for Doom's shareware episode, which is the most polished stretch of levels in either game, but the meme of Doom 2 being comparatively "thrown together" falls apart when you know that the original Doom's registered episodes were mostly pieced together in two months from abandoned scraps, by Sandy Petersen who had never used a level editor before in his life and had little time to learn one. (It's incredible that they were able to release Doom on schedule at all with circumstances like that!) Doom 2 has a lot more open-ended and experimental maps pushing the boundaries of what Doom could be far beyond what the original game thought to do, and they're great. They're not "less detailed and polished" than the original game, and they take great advantage of the new monster behaviors and larger spaces. It's not 100% masterpieces, but the original game was far from that, itself. The designers built on their past experience to branch out and be more ambitious, and aside from being great levels to play, Doom level design probably wouldn't be what it is today without those early innovations. 2 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said: Anything before The Factory is pretty good, except The Pit and The Crusher. Anything after that is pretty bad. The Pit is easily one of my favorite maps, and any other favorites are definitely past those in the map list. 23 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 Then why it is told that Doom 2 suck? 0 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted January 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said: Then why it is told that Doom 2 suck? Because people have opinions 17 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted January 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, esselfortium said: new monster behaviors and larger spaces. They are a mere gimmick. 0 Share this post Link to post
