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BahdKo

doom3 kinda scares me...

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It's like this.

Id made Doom and Doom2. That was all good. Then they made Quake, which was not even a shadow of what Doom2 is, and pretty much turned the deathmatch scene into an ocean of uncoordinated, anonymous, newbieish-attitude kids (and high-on-themselves clans, god help us) who could learn the game and play competitively within 2 weeks. Then Quake2, it was like they were trying to improve Quake and did, somewhat, i guess. Then Quake3 which was sort of improving some things further, but, STILL, did not exceed or even match Doom in the deathmatch dynamics department.

I am kinda like.. Doom3, hmm. It would be great if, somehow, when it came out, it were the real Doom3, the real improvement and advancement of the game that some of us had expected Quake1 to be.

Perhaps since they are not designing it as a "deathmatch" game, they can put aside what the masses of kids and wannabees would want to see, and give us back a real, hardcore game. The people who are still deathmatching in doom are here *because* it is hard to straferun accurately in corridors, and *because* it's a bitch when you accidently run over the wrong weapon and pick it up. The hardcore Doom2 deathmatchers welcome the many difficult things about Doom that the crybabies would complain ever so loudly about. The hard things like the highspeed precision straferunning, the slowness and delay while changing weapons, the auto-switch to any new weapon you pick up, the list goes on; what harm is there in keeping that stuff in, when it's all part of what we want anyway?

Doom2's weapons are so perfect.. I for one would be happy with Doom2's weapons put straight into Doom3. I guess some other people wouldn't be, but, why try to improve on perfection. These URLs describe the perfection, if anyone is interested: http://www.doom2.net/doom2/facility/weapon.html and http://www.doom2.net/doom2/facility/weapons3.html .

Neat engines are cool and all but, theres so much more to a game then genius graphics. When i see the press releases where John Carmack is talking about the new engine, it makes me worry more, not less. The engine isnt the important part!

So anyway. I just sorta can't look forward to Doom3 because I'm afraid of being disappointed again. Quakes 1 through 3 made such a mess. What more can i say.

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I'm an adept to the following concept:
if you want a good game, then you put in it:
great feeling-I don't care what the grafix or other shit looks like, as long as I'll piss on my pants when I'm walking on a dark corridor and a demon charges at me.

decent ambience sounds - I think this was long forgotten

unlimited gameplay

good interface

feel fre to fill in the rest, I think that those are the key elements.

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Sorry, but Quake's level design beat the living shit of out Doom2, despite it's dull and boring texture themes. It's no comparison to Ultimate Doom, but there are hardly any maps in Doom2 that aren't utter crap.

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Neat engines are cool and all but, theres so much more to a game then genius graphics. When i see the press releases where John Carmack is talking about the new engine, it makes me worry more, not less. The engine isnt the important part!


Actually, I think this is one of the rare cases where the engine adds a significant element to the gameplay. The never-before seen real-time lighting is perfect for creating a moody, tense and overwhelmingly realistic-looking single player game. Well that's the plan, anyway.

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It's funny how so many people talk about Doom 2's levels being crap. I can't think any levels that I played and went "this is just weird and lame," as I did for some of the Doom 1 levels, especially in E3.

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1 \/\/111 0\/\/|\| '/0u 1|\| 7|-|3 [F1|23455|<1d5] k14|\| 4|\|'/d4'/, '/0u u|\||-|1p |\|3\/\/813 14/\/\4!

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and pretty much turned the deathmatch scene into an ocean of uncoordinated, anonymous, newbieish-attitude kids (and high-on-themselves clans, god help us) who could learn the game and play competitively within 2 weeks.

Brings a game to the wider masses, I'm all for that. What difference would you think it would have made if Doom 2 had TCP/IP play? Same thing, you're just elitist because "oh look we had Doom 2 before all these newbie lamers came along and had Quake and could play games easily."

I am kinda like.. Doom3, hmm. It would be great if, somehow, when it came out, it were the real Doom3, the real improvement and advancement of the game that some of us had expected Quake1 to be.

Quake was fine, for its time. DM was a bit of a pisser tho. And again, it's the expectations of a select few of the doom community, and what you think or feel should be in a Doom 3 will likely not determine what id actually puts in it. Personally I would prefer a more convenient, less of a pain system than what old-Doom espouses.

Perhaps since they are not designing it as a "deathmatch" game, they can put aside what the masses of kids and wannabees would want to see, and give us back a real, hardcore game. The people who are still deathmatching in doom are here *because* it is hard to straferun accurately in corridors, and *because* it's a bitch when you accidently run over the wrong weapon and pick it up.

That just makes the game less enjoyable for the majority of gamers, Doom or otherwise. Again, it's the difference between the elitist "old Doom" attitude and what people who're out to just have fun would like/want. I don't think id has any obligations to certain segments of our community just because we've been around for this long.

what harm is there in keeping that stuff in, when it's all part of what we want anyway?

Again, that's what you want, not necessarily what anybody else wants. Even if this were a democracy, you would likely not get your way, because your position (making a game arbitrarily difficult - anyone ever hear about Daikatana?) is quite unpopular.

Neat engines are cool and all but, theres so much more to a game then genius graphics. When i see the press releases where John Carmack is talking about the new engine, it makes me worry more, not less. The engine isnt the important part!

I tend to agree with Flathead here. The new engine has all sorts of potential to make the game what Doom really should've been (in my opinion).

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I want it to autoaim up and down, like in the old DOOM. The one thing that would piss me off in Quake 3 is that it wouldn't (or is there a feature I haven't discovered?). But maybe it's an unfair feature. I mean how many people, like me, insist on not using the mouse in any way while playing?

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I am kinda like.. Doom3, hmm. It would be great if, somehow, when it came out, it were the real Doom3, the real improvement and advancement of the game that some of us had expected Quake1 to be.

(...)

Neat engines are cool and all but, theres so much more to a game then genius graphics. When i see the press releases where John Carmack is talking about the new engine, it makes me worry more, not less. The engine isnt the important part!


I'm also hoping that we're going to see Doom as it would look today using today's standards. Meaning, an intense single-player game, using the latest engine to immerse the player into the game's world.

And sometimes I doubt id Software is the company that can make that happen. Sure, their engine is always top-notch and solid, and Carmack goes a long way to ensure that things in this engine are done the correct way... Ever since Quake1 that has meant that the game itself isn't much fun.

For example, in other recent games you can see things like railings along ramps, or trees in amazing detail. Sure, the companies who created those games made some shortcuts... the elaborate detail is mostly 'just' a two-faced texture, but you will only notice that when you're really looking for it. But it WILL greatly enhance a level, and draw the player into the game world. Just look at, eg, Unreal. On the other hand, I feel that id Software takes the following approach: everything in the game must be done the correct way, so railings have to be all modeled, just as every twig on every tree. Meaning they never make that much detail since that would generate too many polygons.

When playing a game, I want to be IMMERSED. I want GAMEPLAY. Id seems to be more concerned about the engine rather than the game.

A while ago I downloaded the demo of Quake3. I'm sorry, but it's just a "3D platform game". A playground of ramps and bridges. This does not draw me into the game. I do not have the feeling of being in an alternate dimension playing gladiator games for some obscure beings, however much curves or nice graphics are thrown at me. Sure you can have a good time playing deathmatches against other people, but the main attraction here is the ability to play deathmatch against other people in the first place. One couldn't care less what game they were playing, as long as it has 'great guns'. Is that all there is to a game these days? Let's hope not.

Going back to Doom2, and you can see that id trend starting. Some of the later 'city' levels were already becoming like this... a large playground, with no relation to any realistic setting. The original Doom on the other hand tried to portrait a realistic setting, as much as it could at that time. Which is why those early levels are still my favorite, as you are really inside a futuristic base that has been invaded by hellspawn.

Summing up, I'm sometimes afraid id Software will take the same approach as it has done for its past few games, and burden us with a 3D platform game of ramps and bridges, playing against 3D models of demons.

Let's hope not. Let's hope they give us a world invaded by hellspawn.

Gods, am I ramblng or what?

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And again, it's the expectations of a select few of the doom community, and what you think or feel should be in a Doom 3 will likely not determine what id actually puts in it. Personally I would prefer a more convenient, less of a pain system than what old-Doom espouses.


I think she stated what she would prefer too.

"The more skilled players there are out there, the better...Skilled players and newbies alike are keeping Doom2 and deathmatch alive and kicking."
This is from the document that Bahd wrote for the Facility. It doesn't sound elitist to me. In fact, this elitist bs is just ridiculous.

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I guess it's true when people say to not ask DooM fans for Quake feedback.

DooM 3 shares the name with that award-winning franchise of id, but things are different now. You can't expect a game to follow the tradition of the older ones after 8 years. Take a look at the gaming, software and hardware scene, 8 years pretty much looks like the differences between today's lifestyle and the one found 120 years ago.

DooM 3 deserves to be judged independently, and not being compared to old DooMs. It's the new revolution in engines, and as Flatheads pointed, this time it's important. The flashy graphics do more than eye candy, but enhance the gameplay.

It might not feel like it's possible right now, but in 4 years all engines will have this feature. Not having it would be like playing new BUILD games in this Q3A-engined era.

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Brings a game to the wider masses, I'm all for that. What difference would you think it would have made if Doom 2 had TCP/IP play? Same thing, you're just elitist because "oh look we had Doom 2 before all these newbie lamers came along and had Quake and could play games easily."


Here's what "bringing a game to the wider masses" means:

I remember when Quake1 first came out, there was a group of guys on our BBS who were, well, lamers. They were the ones who always sucked, and never improved. They had the attitude that practicing movement or aim for a game was beneath them, playing someone who is better than them and learning from the experience was beneath them, and they had no respect either. If they were in a game with a good player, they would simply leave, and just play the people who, like them, sucked. A few were keyboarders, and a few were kids who were mousers but had horrible attitudes.

Quake1 came out and OH my god. I remember we were all in a few games together, and the scores were roughly even because all you had to do was run and get a rocket launcher and start firing it. It was like, whoever made it there first would be the one getting frags, and since movement was practically skilless in comparison to Doom, the real skill of the players didnt matter. They were screaming "I LOVE THIS!! I LOVE THIS!!" into the game, as they were finally getting frags on the players who were, actually, skilled.

This is a degredation of the game, without a doubt. when "bringing the game to the masses" means making the thing so much easier to play that the complete losers fall in love with it on first sight, IMO that does not mean it is, even in a twisted respect (except perhaps profits for the makers), an improvement.

Quake was fine, for its time. DM was a bit of a pisser tho. And again, it's the expectations of a select few of the doom community, and what you think or feel should be in a Doom 3 will likely not determine what id actually puts in it. Personally I would prefer a more convenient, less of a pain system than what old-Doom espouses.


Yeah we are few, but you know what. The list of people who share most of this opinion are for the most part the best Doom2 deathmatchers in the world. And yes, I know that ID is not too likely to care what this small group wants. Hence, like I said, Doom3 kinda scares me ..

That just makes the game less enjoyable for the majority of gamers, Doom or otherwise. Again, it's the difference between the elitist "old Doom" attitude and what people who're out to just have fun would like/want. I don't think id has any obligations to certain segments of our community just because we've been around for this long.


It's not an elitest attitude. That's different. Here is an example of an elitest attitude.

There was this really neat group of guys that I used to Doom with back in 1996 who lived in the Maryland/Virginia/DC area. They frequented the DC Dwango server primarily, and had netparties once every few months. They were friendly, nice people who enjoyed having new people come into their group, and would play and talk to just about anyone. Just overall, a great group of guys.

When Quake1 came out, they liked the clan aspect of it, and formed a Quake clan named Clan Gib. Some years passed, and evidently they became well known. I finally caught up with them about a year ago, and experienced what "elitest" really means. For them, an IRC channel that is not Invite-Only status is a "public presence." Seeing people they do not know is referred to as, more or less, a flood of lamers. Their expectation when seeing people they do not know is that they are automatically a lower status somehow, and it is ok to be disrespectful and, even, harrass them.

I have not met a high-skilled doomer who is elitest. Their choice of game and high requirements does not make them elitest, as elitest is an attitude where the person thinks they are *personally* better. It's a whole different concept.

what harm is there in keeping that stuff in, when it's all part of what we want anyway? "Again, that's what you want, not necessarily what anybody else wants. Even if this were a democracy, you would likely not get your way, because your position (making a game arbitrarily difficult - anyone ever hear about Daikatana?) is quite unpopular."


Not me alone. You should stop pretending that I'm the only one who is like this. I don't really feel like wasting the time of the great players, dragging them in here to agree with me.

Neat engines are cool and all but, theres so much more to a game then genius graphics. When i see the press releases where John Carmack is talking about the new engine, it makes me worry more, not less. The engine isnt the important part!

I tend to agree with Flathead here. The new engine has all sorts of potential to make the game what Doom really should've been (in my opinion).
[/quote]Engine alone cannot do it.. surely you must know that. Donno what to say there.

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Here's what "bringing a game to the wider masses" means:
---8<---
Quake1 came out and OH my god. I remember we were all in a few games together, and the scores were roughly even because all you had to do was run and get a rocket launcher and start firing it. It was like, whoever made it there first would be the one getting frags, and since movement was practically skilless in comparison to Doom, the real skill of the players didnt matter. They were screaming "I LOVE THIS!! I LOVE THIS!!" into the game, as they were finally getting frags on the players who were, actually, skilled.

This is a degredation of the game, without a doubt. when "bringing the game to the masses" means making the thing so much easier to play that the complete losers fall in love with it on first sight, IMO that does not mean it is, even in a twisted respect (except perhaps profits for the makers), an improvement.

In other words, you weren't willing to adapt yourself to the complex rules of another game, and in so doing, allowed people who would never have attained your level of skill in Doom to beat you in Quake because you had not spent enough time to different your Quake skills from theirs? Yeah, ok. Keep in mind there is a broad spectrum of skill in the gaming communities of Quake, Quake 2, HL, Q3, UT, etc. Had you actually given the game the chance (adjusted your skillset to adapt!) you might have far outshone your fellow players. I direct your attention to people like Adam Williamson, Jon Rimmer and Andy Kempling who've made successful transitions to DM-ing in CS, Q2, Q3A, etc.

Yeah we are few, but you know what. The list of people who share most of this opinion are for the most part the best Doom2 deathmatchers in the world. And yes, I know that ID is not too likely to care what this small group wants. Hence, like I said, Doom3 kinda scares me ..

So first you claim a non-elitist attitude then you adopt the stance of the elitist reactionary (OH NO THEY'LL MAKE A GAME WITH DIFFERENT RULES AND WE WON'T BE ABLE TO ADAPT AND DOMINATE THE NEW LANDSCAPE!). Again, yeah right.

Engine alone cannot do it.. surely you must know that. Donno what to say there.

I'd direct you to some of the hype surrounding the original Doom, but I feel you'd miss the irony.

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OH NO THEY'LL MAKE A GAME WITH DIFFERENT RULES AND WE WON'T BE ABLE TO ADAPT AND DOMINATE THE NEW LANDS!


I don't want to "adapt" to CamperSh... Counterstrike for example :) Who said we have to jump on the new games. Would you tell the world class QW players that they are elitists too because they won't play a newer game? I've played much q1-2-3 before I got into Doom deathmatch but I think Doom2's DM is much more fun. People like different games for different reasons, and they have their opinions too. Some people like an old game more and expect (or hope that) the new ones will bring the same experience. They just like a different game. Gotta accept it.

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In other words, you weren't willing to adapt yourself to the complex rules of another game, and in so doing, allowed people who would never have attained your level of skill in Doom to beat you in Quake because you had not spent enough time to different your Quake skills from theirs?


Complex my ass, puh-leez. Rocket Launcher. w00. Nope, i wasnt willing to adapt to using the rocket launcher almost exclusively and working ever-so-hard to time running (not even straferunning) around the map so that I pick up stupid ITEMS in time, because winning is so dependant on you having the armor and the other guy not. Real degredation of the game, there, no question.

You sound like you love Quake or something .. Quake-lovers wouldn't be the kinds of people who would understand what I'm talking about anyhow.

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I don't want to "adapt" to CamperSh... Counterstrike for example :)

Whether or not you want to, the result is the same. Inability to change your gaming expectations. Judgment of other games and styles by an absolute scale which is neither accurate nor reasonable, etc.

Who said we have to jump on the new games.

If that's how the new game is played, then you jump.

Would you tell the world class QW players that they are elitists too because they won't play a newer game?

I'd call them insular fools. Elitists are people who consider themselves better than others because they don't play anything else.

frequently I've played much q1-2-3 before I got into Doom deathmatch but I think Doom2's DM is much more fun. People like different games for different reasons, and they have their opinions too. Some people like an old game more and expect (or hope that) the new ones will bring the same experience. They just like a different game. Gotta accept it.

So a new game will play differently, what's to be scared of then? Not like any of you will switch from playing Doom/2? Why would this even be an issue?

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Complex my ass, puh-leez. Rocket Launcher. w00. Nope, i wasnt willing to adapt to using the rocket launcher almost exclusively and working ever-so-hard to time running (not even straferunning) around the map so that I pick up stupid ITEMS in time, because winning is so dependant on you having the armor and the other guy not. Real degredation of the game, there, no question.

You sound like you love Quake or something .. Quake-lovers wouldn't be the kinds of people who would understand what I'm talking about anyhow.

Like I've said, a real inability to see beyond the inane antics an ordinary Doom 2 DM match has you performing. Why should adapting yourself to another set of tactics be anathema?

I do agree with you that Quake 1 sucks. But I think it sucks for some fairly different reasons. Doom, Quake 2 and 3 don't suffer from the faults I find in Quake.

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I had spent +20 hour sessions of pure Quake1 deathmatch. Man, that's something DooM2 never pulled in my case.

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Who said we have to jump on the new games.

If that's how the new game is played, then you jump.

My fault. I meant to "jump", as in switch to new games.

Elitists are people who consider themselves better than others because they don't play anything else.

Well that's one way to use that word. We are not talking about that though, so I guess it's not important.
I want to state again, these are all opinions. Think about the endless QW/Q2/Q3/CS/UT flamewars. We don't need to argue about our expectations, everybody will play what they want :) Some vanilla Doom2 forever, some the new games, I will play both.
/me goes back to record more uv movies

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Waldon's right, this is pointless, but still a fairly interesting reading.

I guess we sidetracked a little. The thing is...DooM 3 MP will not feel like Quake's or DooM's. Experience before judging.

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LOL. I love this place, and hey, we fianlly got to see some of Zaldrons fine moderating action! Oh yeah, BAHHHH, IM A HAPPY SHEEP.

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I Think Id = Quality products.
Look at their engines compared to others.
Think about all the popular games that use licensed Id technology.
I look forward to Doom 3.
I bet after Doom 3 comes out every other company will
try to use the doom 3 engine.

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I bet after Doom 3 comes out every other company will
try to use the doom 3 engine.


heh, maybe 2 years after doom3 will be released..

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I've noticed something about 3 years ago.Every one of id's games has a different engine.The DOOM engine,Quake engine,Quake II engine,Quake 3,you know


So, You want to say that the engine does matter, after all?

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Dude, you can edit posts. See that edit button? Press it.

And using italics code doesn't automatically inserts spaces either.

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