KillPixel Posted February 25, 2018 If you don't mind: level playtime Level structure Protagonists 9 Share this post Link to post
Mr. Freeze Posted February 25, 2018 >5-10 minutes >Episodes >A strong protagonist is prefered but I can live without one. If you vote anything other than this, you are wrong. 1 Share this post Link to post
Doominator2 Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said: If you vote anything other than this, you are wrong. Thats like, your opinion man 4 Share this post Link to post
Jello Posted February 26, 2018 30-60 minute levels on the first playthrough. If you're going to take the time to make a game, you might as well make the levels interesting. And really that time frame seemed to be pretty common among the usermade Quake levels I've played, and even Doom 1 and 2 had quite a few levels that would take around 30 minutes on your first play. Episodes and individual levels are more enjoyable to me. Not even episodes really, just having each level separated allowed for more artistic diversity between them. It really became noticeable in Quake 2 and Half-Life when everything had to tie together during level transitions. I thought "Oh look, a small hallway that breaks up the vis distance between two areas, bet it's going to be a new level!" I do really miss the individual levels with their own themes or layouts. Quake was great at this. Yes it was a bunch of brown and muted green, with blue showing up in the last episode, but the levels were fun and varied. For protagonists, it depends. If they're developed and verbose, they need to be likeable. I'm absolutely fine with a mute protagonist as long as there's no NPCs talking to you constantly. Half-Life 1 & 2, I'm looking at you. Doomguy and the Ranger are fine, they're there to do one thing, and that's kill everything they see. However, Caleb was a great verbose protagonist because they didn't have him take anything seriously. His cackle after blowing up some zombies with dynamite was fantastic. And I know Blood 2 was kind of crap, but when you ride the elevator up to the third level and he says "It's howdy doody time kiddies, the bad man is here" still makes me laugh. Duke on the other hand always annoyed me, probably because they intentionally made him an unlikable, over the top narcissist. 2 Share this post Link to post
Master O Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Jello said: For protagonists, it depends. If they're developed and verbose, they need to be likeable. I'm absolutely fine with a mute protagonist as long as there's no NPCs talking to you constantly. Half-Life 1 & 2, I'm looking at you. Doomguy and the Ranger are fine, they're there to do one thing, and that's kill everything they see. However, Caleb was a great verbose protagonist because they didn't have him take anything seriously. His cackle after blowing up some zombies with dynamite was fantastic. And I know Blood 2 was kind of crap, but when you ride the elevator up to the third level and he says "It's howdy doody time kiddies, the bad man is here" still makes me laugh. Duke on the other hand always annoyed me, probably because they intentionally made him an unlikable, over the top narcissist. Duke is meant to be a caricature/parody of ultra macho 1980s action heroes, like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis, etc... That's the whole joke. 0 Share this post Link to post
Spie812 Posted February 26, 2018 The level time was the one that I had to put the most thought into. In the end, I voted for 10-30 minutes, but only on the first playthrough. Generally I think that any second/third/whatever playthroughs should be much shorter. I would not want to have a level take 20 minutes when you know exactly what you are doing. Episodic structure is pretty cool. Speaking about games in general, I don't really care whether a game has a strong and well defined protagonist or not. However, given the atmosphere of the game you are making, I would prefer a silent protagonist in this case. 2 Share this post Link to post
Mr. Freeze Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Master O said: Duke is meant to be a caricature/parody of ultra macho 1980s action heroes, like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis, etc... That's the whole joke. I get it. I mean, it ain't funny, but I get it. 0 Share this post Link to post
yakfak Posted February 26, 2018 i love ginormous levels really system shock and hexen are distinctly much more my thing than duke 3d quake is amazing but i thought the weakest part of the game was the way the levels played themselves and the silver key is never particularly far away from the silver door and etc. let me get lost instead :))) no opinion on level format or protagonist, cos i can see reasons for any of them. level duration is just something i always wanna be long 0 Share this post Link to post
ETTiNGRiNDER Posted February 26, 2018 Level time: 5-10 minutes Though 10-15 might be more like it in some cases. 30 is generally too long. The way I see it, level divisions should be seen as a bit akin to checkpoints. If the level's too long to reasonably beat without saving in the middle, it's too long. If you're not going to use them in a checkpointy way, hubs/continuous world might be better. Level grouping: Episodes Original Doom / Heretic did it right. Doom 2 and megawads thereof get kind of onerous since you can't really complete a discrete unit of the game in one sitting (unless you're a mad speedrunner or something I suppose) and half the time I lose interest by the next day or two. Protagonist: I prefer no protagonist to a lame protagonist Duke Nukem is a good bad example of a character who's obnoxious and detracts from the game, it was novel at the time but he really doesn't hold up. But TBH about the best time I can think of having liked a defined FPS protagonist was Parker from Red Faction and that was mainly because he was generally expressing what I was already thinking as a player (An escort mission? Can't I just shoot this jackass?) 0 Share this post Link to post
Woolie Wool Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, Master O said: Duke is meant to be a caricature/parody of ultra macho 1980s action heroes, like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis, etc... That's the whole joke. Ironically punching down never, ever works. Duke 3D is a great game but I cannot stand Duke Nukem the character anymore. All ironic toxicity is in the end actual toxicity. 0 Share this post Link to post
PsychoGoatee Posted February 27, 2018 I always bet on Duke, but we're all entitled to our taste in video gamery. Duke is both homage and parody I'd say, to me it is funny and charming. And I don't think a womanizing perv type of character in fiction is inherently toxic either, certainly no more so than say a fictional hitman etc. But discussing what is or isn't good to have in any medium of fiction is an even more wide ranging topic. 4 Share this post Link to post
bonnie Posted February 27, 2018 10-30 minutes, 5-10 is way too short, kinda undermines the levels unless there's like 20 per... ...episode. episodes are harder for games to pull off though since it requires the devs to essentially remake the start of the game all over again, which has to actually be fun and solid to keep players invested. blood failed in this regard for me, it was losing me towards the end of episode 1 and the start of episode 2 kinda fell flat so i just stopped playing redneck rampage protagonists or riot 0 Share this post Link to post
Nine Inch Heels Posted February 27, 2018 Playtime: 10 minutes max Structure: Don't care Protagonist: Fuck off 0 Share this post Link to post
Remilia Scarlet Posted February 27, 2018 30-60 minutes (well, more like 20 minutes), at least for the first time playing it. I especially like to stop and enjoy the scenery. I prefer episodes. Hubs are my least favorite, which is probably one reason I never got into Hexen that much. A strong protagonist is preferred but I can live without one. 0 Share this post Link to post
Skeletonpatch Posted February 27, 2018 10-30 minutes. I feel like in these types of games, anything less than ten minutes is too short and anything longer than an hour is too long. Of course this also depends on where in the game the level is, they should start relatively short and get progressively longer with each map. I like to admire the scenery if it exists, and I enjoy getting to know a location quite a bit. Episodes. As much as I love a good megawad, I don't think I've played any of the 32 map long IWADs all the way through in years. The level progression gets really tiring when there is constant buildup to the next thing. Separate episodes reset that buildup, making it feel more like you've just finished a chapter in a book as opposed to watching a ten hour long documentary in one sitting. I enjoyed HeXen quite a bit, but I don't get the impressing that you're making that kind of game from everything you've shown. A strong protagonist is preferred but I can live without one. I love me a good protagonist, like Caleb for example, but I don't find myself liking Dusk any less simply because I can't find any reliable info on Duskdude (I've seen maybe three different descriptions of his backstory and I still have no idea what he actually looks like). 0 Share this post Link to post
Xaser Posted February 27, 2018 I'm psyched to see "Episodes" currently leading the level structure poll. That concept needs a good comeback. 1 Share this post Link to post
Mira Posted February 27, 2018 6 hours ago, Xaser said: I'm psyched to see "Episodes" currently leading the level structure poll. That concept needs a good comeback. I love these things. 0 Share this post Link to post
Mr. Freeze Posted February 27, 2018 6 hours ago, Xaser said: I'm psyched to see "Episodes" currently leading the level structure poll. That concept needs a good comeback. Can you get away with keeping (some) weapons and equipment from episode to episode, or does that go against the whole idea? 0 Share this post Link to post
KillPixel Posted February 27, 2018 Thank you to everyone who voted and to those who took the time to share their insights in this thread. The more the merrier, I say! I consider every opinion and point raised as they all contribute to better and more informed decisions! Thanks! 0 Share this post Link to post
[McD] James Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) I like Duke Nukem as a video game protagonist, but he's not someone I'd be very fond of if he were a real person. I actually think I like Sam Stone a bit more, even though I don't like his games. Edited February 28, 2018 by Ajora 0 Share this post Link to post
Spectre01 Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) Level playtime: 10-30 minutes. Anything less than 10 is generally too little content to stay memorable. 20-30 is probably my preferred range for the average map, although I do enjoy massive maps as well. Level structure: No preference. As long as the maps are interesting, I don't mind whether it's packed into an episode or a single, continuous journey. Protagonists: As long as the gameplay is good, it doesn't matter much. Since we're talking about an action-based FPS, and not some kind of RPG-hybrid where you have to make tough decisions and your consequences matter, whether the protagonist is silent like in Doom or throws out quirky one-liners like in Duke/Shadow Warrior makes no difference to me. 0 Share this post Link to post
Scorpinax Posted February 28, 2018 On 2/25/2018 at 8:37 PM, Mr. Freeze said: I get it. I mean, it ain't funny, but I get it. 0 Share this post Link to post
june gloom Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) Marathon is proof that even a classic Doom/Quake-style FPS doesn't need to have an active protagonist to have a good story. Even though some of the story centers around the player character, he and by extension you are mostly just in for the ride (and the alien slaughter.) As far as level length and structure, it really doesn't matter and is dependent on what you're trying to accomplish with the game. A straightforward, episodic structure a la Doom is perhaps the purest form of the genre, but a Quake 2 series of hubs allows for greater interconnection between spaces -- and when you have multiple levels strung together like that it really doesn't matter how long they are. 0 Share this post Link to post
Pirx Posted February 28, 2018 On 25.2.2018 at 10:48 PM, KillPixel said: If you don't mind: level playtime Level structure Protagonists Playtime: about 15-30 min. Not that I don't enjoy "sharp, punchy" maps, or long adventures, but the middle ground is best. Level structure : I prefer udoom's episodic structure over 32 maps in a row because it's easier for a theme change and resets the player without the death exits. Hub is worst, never know where I have flipped that damn switch and where I should go next. Protagonist : who cares. I yam what I yam and I'm Popeye the sailor man 0 Share this post Link to post
StoneMason Posted February 28, 2018 5-30 mins for level playtime. I like an equal variety of shorter and longer levels. Anything much more than 30 mins works better as a once in a blue moon thing. I also think level ones should not be much longer than 5 minutes. Episode structure is king, but I honestly dont mind Doom 2 style either. Hubs I personally think work better in games like System Shock and Metroid Prime. Protagonist: Don't really mind either way. I'd even be on board with full character customization. 0 Share this post Link to post
-Votterbin- Posted February 28, 2018 Playtime: 5-15. I don't have a whole lot of free time thanks to work and school, so I prefer maps that are short and sweet. Structure: I prefer either episodic structure or continuous levels. Protagonist: I don't mind a somewhat-defined protagonist like Duke, Caleb, or Lo Wang in Build Engine games or Gordon Freeman in Half-Life. As long as who they are isn't shoved down my throat every 5 seconds, and as long as the game itself is really fun to play, then it doesn't bother me. 0 Share this post Link to post
DooM_RO Posted February 28, 2018 I like my levels to be long. 30-60 minutes is the sweet spot for me. Was very pleased that the levels in Doom 2016 fit that category. These are also the kinds of levels I like to make. The protagonist should be exaggerated manifestations of the masculine archetype. Besides the classic heroes we all love, I think the Doomslayer and the modern incarnation of B.J Blazkowicz are very good interpretations of this archetype. They should be unique but easy to understand. I am tired of the 30-something edgy ex-special-forces stock character. The structure does not really matter as long as the levels are varied from a aesthetic and gameplay perspective. I guess an episodic structure would force the devs to make their episodes distinct from one another. 0 Share this post Link to post
VGA Posted February 28, 2018 In the episodic format, one level can be 3 minutes long and another can be 40 minutes long. And that's good. Also you start the episode with only the basic guns and then get more as you go along and you meet stronger enemies. There is more of a progression. It's better for speedrunning, too. Hmmm, I can't think of any disadvantages of the episodic format. 0 Share this post Link to post