Wondering

This week has been one hella week, and in light of all revelations made i.e. the leaked alpha, doom3 keeps getting better and better and better, with news that is getting better and better and better Having said that, do u guys think there is a downside to the game? Any shortcomings?

it's an alpha. I don't have enough information to draw those conclusions. Any misgivings I have about the game will be history when it's released, i'm positive. Can't wait!

What shortcomings?

So far, it's all good.

The third enemy in the second level is placed 0.000002 units too far to the left for my taste.

Fredrik said:

The third enemy in the second level is placed 0.000002 units too far to the left for my taste.

What kind of taste do you have? sicko. It's more like 0.000018 units too far to the left.

/me huggles fredrik

Well, I suppose one could make the comment that it's Half-Life in the Doom universe with pretty graphics. Which it is, only with a less intuitive weapons selection system and somewhat less impressive weapons. I really hope they make the pistol more powerful. Most people don't realize it, but a high-caliber handgun (.44, .45, .454, .50) will do a lot more tissue damage at close range than most rifles - at least against an unarmored opponent.

Otherwise, it's essentially flawless, in my opinion. A lot of people have been complaining about low-res textures, but I haven't really noticed. And, of course, it's slow, but wtf people. Wait until the final game before you make those sort of judgements. Technically, we should really wait until the final game before we make any sort of judgements. But they're not final judgements anyway. Who made their final judgements of Quake based on qtest?

I don't think this is half-life at all. IMO it's a perfect Doom translation so far. It doesn't matter to me if the weapons are realistic or not. If they make the handgun any more powerfull, it will make the shotgun extraneous/superfluous or whatever it's called.

I think so far the game really holds a great atmosphear and I do have that doomfeeling again when I walk around in those spooky levels. The environment resembles a high-tech base gone apocalyptic with all the blood and creepy sounds.

By the way, there's a lot of ambient sounds.
I wonder how they'll 'mix' the music into that. I also wonder what kind of music fits the atmoshpere. Cause when there's no music at all, like in the alpha, I don't really miss it. It's supercreepy the way it is right now.

Disorder said:

I think so far the game really holds a great atmosphear and I do have that doomfeeling again when I walk around in those spooky levels. The environment resembles a high-tech base gone apocalyptic with all the blood and creepy sounds.

By the way, there's a lot of ambient sounds.
I wonder how they'll 'mix' the music into that. I also wonder what kind of music fits the atmoshpere. Cause when there's no music at all, like in the alpha, I don't really miss it. It's supercreepy the way it is right now.

I think music is one of iD's lowest priorities atm :(

Katarhyne said:

Which it is, only with a less intuitive weapons selection system and somewhat less impressive weapons. I really hope they make the pistol more powerful. Most people don't realize it, but a high-caliber handgun

Less impressive weapons than Half life's? How? Hl's weapons weren't really all that impressive. True, they had a more authentic feel to them, but imho, the Doom weapons were cooler, because a lot more thought seemed to have been put in them (HL's weapons where just mostly real life weapons, a few retarded organic alien weapons and some slightly lame fururistic weapons).

And if they make the pistol more powerful, somebody's gonna die a horrible death - judging from what I've seen in the leaked video, it's a perfect re-creation of the original Doom pistol (which WAS wimpy).
I like the weakest weapon to be wimpy - that way, I can try and play the full game, using only the pistol to challenge myself. As long as the weak enemies jerk in pain when shot with it.

They better make the pistol stronger then a single shotgun pellet this time around. I always found that a little silly.

they should not put BGM music.if the music play all the time through the level,it sometimesit make the game less immersive.like HL,the music should be played at some scripting point.

Well, Shaviro, you don't like Half-Life because everyone else likes it, so of course liking Doom 3 (which as far as we can see is extremely like Half-Life) would make you a hypocrite, unless you decry it as nothing like Half-Life. So, you do, natch. And anyway, the shotgun does about *gasp* seven times as much damage as the pistol, so raising the pistol's damage wouldn't hurt a bit, especially with the horridly-slow rate of fire they gave it. I realize it was probably done largely for nostalgia reasons, but really. Let's see a bit of realism and a bit of fun-factor tweaking here - it's no fun to use a weapon that simply doesn't work.

Half-Life's weapons were extremely impressive. How did Doom's weapons have any thought put into them? The BFG aside, they're all incredibly bland. In fact, they rather strike me as if someone went "heh heh, a big gatling gun like in wolf would be cool" "heh heh, army of darkness is cool, let's add a super-shotgun" "heh heh, a rocket launcher would be cool so you could blow shit up". They don't even make sense. Why the hell is an old pump-action shotgun, or for that matter a CHAINSAW on an abandoned martian moonbase? It's retarded to try to apply that school of thought to a modern game. It worked in Doom because Doom was still focused on a more arcade-like experience (if you remember, Doom very nearly had a score counter), but these days, people are expecting a somewhat more realistic experience from their FPS games, and even if they weren't, that's what id is going for with this game, so it makes a lot more sense to have their weapons reflect real-life weapons.

And anyway, about the "I like the weakest weapon to be wimpy thing" - the Glock in Half-Life is still quite a formidable weapon, and yet, trying to play the game through using just it is nigh-impossible. Try it. It's possible to make a weapon worthwhile and fun to use without destroying game balance.

Besides, sure, HL had real-life or similar-to-real-life weapons. But that's still extremely innovative. Why? Because it had never been done before. Not in a major commercial action-oriented game, anyway. The only game around that period that had realistic weapons was Rainbow Six, and not only was it a completely different genre of game, it sucked moosecock. Besides, who are you to call HL's alien weapons retarded? They were damn innovative too, just like the futuristic weapons. In fact, the more I think about it, there is really no good reason anyone could have to complain about Half-Life's weapons except maybe a personal reason ("I hate Glock, Inc") - and that's just dumb.

No, as much as you folks may not like to admit it, Doom 3 (or what we've seen of it) plays almost exactly like Half-Life, with the addition of stamina - a fairly small change, in the grand scheme of things. It just means it will take you longer to backtrack.

Hmm. I don't like realism. Boring.

myk said:

Hmm. I don't like realism. Boring.

Yeah, why are the gamemakers so boring. Realism doesn't make game better, just more realistic. The main thing in games is gameplay and realism is only a small part of it.

Realism makes the game a more visceral experience because you can relate more easily to it, and thus the game is more intense. A lot of people claim that fast-paced action games like Doom, and more recently, Serious Sam are 'visceral' experiences, but, at least for me, they get quite boring very fast because it's impossible to relate to them or even to put yourself in the character's position. Games that have no basis in reality really aren't any fun to me anymore, and the majority of the gaming public agrees with me. That's why games like Half-Life and Deus Ex are so popular.

Myk: I disagree, Realism, to an extent, is a good idea. Just aslong as the realism doesn't get in the way. For example, weapons based on real weapons, adds to the believeability, but once that base is created, adjust the weapon to fit the game, not adjust the game to fit the weapon. Another example, is base a building off a real one, but change the building to suit the game. I like games to suspend my beleif a little bit. Real-life is good as a base......not as the game.

Katarhyne said:
Half-Life's weapons were extremely impressive. How did Doom's weapons have any thought put into them? The BFG aside, they're all incredibly bland. In fact, they rather strike me as if someone went "heh heh, a big gatling gun like in wolf would be cool" "heh heh, army of darkness is cool, let's add a super-shotgun" "heh heh, a rocket launcher would be cool so you could blow shit up".

Err, When doom was first released, almost all of its weapons were innovative. aside from the pistol, and the chaingun (I think the only reason they stuck the chaingun in there was because of wolf3d, IMO it would have made more sense if they'd used an assault rifle of some sort), they were almost all weapons that nobody had even thought to put into a FPS. They were all fresh and exciting when it was first released. They only seem bland now because every one else decided to copy it. And I'd expect it to keep all of the originals, but throw in some tasty extras (RtCW style). But while they may be going for realism, this is id. So like any post id game, the weapons will be very basic, but very solid and balanced weapon selection. They might have one nice new weapon idea, but at best, it'll be slightly better then quake 2s weapons range...

Katarhyne also said:
They don't even make sense. Why the hell is an old pump-action shotgun, or for that matter a CHAINSAW on an abandoned martian moonbase? It's retarded to try to apply that school of thought to a modern game. It worked in Doom because Doom was still focused on a more arcade-like experience (if you remember, Doom very nearly had a score counter), but these days, people are expecting a somewhat more realistic experience from their FPS games, and even if they weren't, that's what id is going for with this game, so it makes a lot more sense to have their weapons reflect real-life weapons.

Oh please don't make dsm explain why the phobos base has weapons lying about again... :)

dsm said:
Less impressive weapons than Half life's? How? Hl's weapons weren't really all that impressive. True, they had a more authentic feel to them, but imho, the Doom weapons were cooler, because a lot more thought seemed to have been put in them (HL's weapons where just mostly real life weapons, a few retarded organic alien weapons and some slightly lame fururistic weapons).

While some of HL weapons were based on real ones, they where all worked over to make them more FPS friendly. example, the pistol (a glock in the original, berretta in the high rez pack with blue shift) hade a secondary faring mode, (faster but less accurate) and I'm pretty sure no real pistols have that feature.

and the MP5 had a clip size of 50 rounds and a grenade launcher. I assure you, real Mp5 don't (OK so in the high res pack, it was replaced with a colt m4a1 which can have a grenade launcher attachment, but that's not the point).

And I happen to like the funky weapons (alien doohickeys and energy weapons) and I wouldn’t mind seeing some demonic weapons in doom 3... after all, if doom guy can use "unholy artifacts ", why not a demonic sword (maybe as a secrete)? But I'd draw the line an melee weapons... things like unmaker wouldn't be so bad for the first dooms, but it'd be really odd in doom 3...and yes I am aware that the reappearance of soul/mega spheres ect are unlikely. I’m just thinking...

dsm also said:
And if they make the pistol more powerful, somebody's gonna die a horrible death - judging from what I've seen in the leaked video, it's a perfect re-creation of the original Doom pistol (which WAS wimpy).
I like the weakest weapon to be wimpy - that way, I can try and play the full game, using only the pistol to challenge myself. As long as the weak enemies jerk in pain when shot with it.

Well the pistol better damn well do more damage then a single shotty pellet. and if doom 3 is going to be survival horror, (less ammo about), then they are either going to have to make the pistol more powerful, or make the monsters weaker. it doesn’t need to be too powerful, just strong enough so that a marine can take down a single zombie (assuming that the zombie is one of the weaker opponents) with a few well placed shots with out too much trouble. So I am hoping its stronger then the first dooms.

Actually, Captian Red Pants, the only reason Doom's weapons were really innovative at all is because, for all intents and purposes, it was the second commercial FPS game ever. (I'm aware that there were things like Catacombs 3D, etc, but they don't really count) The weapons in it, again with the exception of the BFG and perhaps the plasma, are quite bland, and nothing that any gamer could have come up with.

And in any event, how do you define "basic"? Lacking a secondary fire mode? (by the way, the 'secondary fire' on the Glock/Beretta in HL wasn't a feature of the weapon, but merely an option to pull the trigger of the gun faster thus giving a higher rate of fire with reduced accuracy - every double-action handgun has this option)

Yes, the real MP5 can have a 50-shot clip and a 40mm grenade launcher.

I like your idea of demonic weapons for the Doom3guy.

I agree that's the reason games are made like that is because they are easy to relate to, since it's more likely that someone will relate to something based on a real thing, and also because technology develops in that direction. It can look more realistic, so it will. Actually I agree DOOM isn't fun in a immersing way to the degree that newer games are (that is, if immersiveness adds to the fun factor at all), particularly if you do not use an enhanced engine with ambient sounds, special lighting and such things. It is fun in an rather gamey way, although the sprites being more complex than older games' makes them more appealing and gives them some character. You could even say they are sort of cute (well, when they aren't killing you at least.)

I don't see much of a point in realism though because it doesn't carry meaning in the same way a more referencial kind or design (or art) does. Basing something on stories or artwork or movies often says something as it makes you recall them and sort of see them in a new way while they simultaneously add to the meaning of the game, book, movie or whatever they "influence." Realism instead tends to make more concrete and more independent products that usually don't have the "intelligence" (to say it some way) that fiction-based products have. Thus they are indeed more appropriate commercially. Not that id software is particularly realist, but realism becomes inevitable at this point it seems. It's like Carmack has to prove the realistic things that are possible with the new tech (who else is there to push it this far this fast) so they play a strong role in the final product. This means that other things that may be a lot of fun but would get in the way of this are not to be considered.

Finally, not only is realism easy to relate to, but also benefits hardware development, since it pushes it in a predictable direction The tech that 1st served for a game will be functional for other sorts of activities yet not so demanding, just like farm tool tech was used for developing weapons or military tech for engineering. Thus inevitably realistic gaming will get commercial support, be advertised, and sold. And you have to buy better tech, or be stuck playing a crappier game.

Eh?

Kat, you got bored of Sam because you couldn't relate to it?

Strange.

I stopped playing it because I beat the living life out of it after a three-day adrenelin-filled blasting session.

Ah well, each to their own.

I think demonic weapons would be cool, but I don't want them to look Lord Of The Rings-like. They'd have to suit the game well, so a weapon like that would have to end up like the concept of the pinky in my opinion. Half-metal/Half-Flesh.

Actually, myk, I see where you're coming from and you get mad respect from me for coming out and saying it in an intelligent and well-thought out manner. But, naturally, I don't agree.

I really don't even believe in the very concept of 'art', or at least, what most people consider art. I think things can be 'artistic', but doing something for the sake of being artistic or being allowed to do something otherwise not acceptable for the sake of 'art' is simply moronic in my opinion. Really, most things involving 'art' just irritate the living fuck out of me. Like, splatterpaint. What the FUCK was up with that? And now some crazy whore is going to put elephant shit on a bunch of pictures of the Virgin Mary and they're going to display this in a museum because it's "art"? Look people, I'm all for the desecration of religious idols, but for the love, elephant shit?! And what about those crazy fucks taking low-speed photos while they're swingin' the camera around on a rope? That's 'art'? I could menstruate more artistic things than that. I probably HAVE.

Geh.

In fact, I'll stop now - I'll leave it at that, because I really don't feel like arguing over the meaning of an abstract concept. >.<; Not at 7AM, anyway.

i like game that had good balance of realism + imagination.Sometimes too much realism can make the game less fun.Doom is in futuristic setting.id should not worry how realistic it should be.they need good imagination to set the DOOM3 world in their way.

speaking about demonic weapon.so far i can think of the tentacle.after killing the tentacle soldier,we can pick the tentacle arm and use it as melee weapon.

My observations and opinions:
Doom 3 has Half life elements in it yes, but that doesn't make it "Half life in a demonic setting", because HL is more about puzzle solving and careful planning. I'm currently playing through Half Life for like the 8th time, and I notice how you don't seem to be able to go in all guns-a'-blazing like you can in Doom (and apparently in Doom 3 as well).
Doom's weapons didn't make sense? Oh please. We have a base where a batallion of heavily armed marines are sent in to clear it. They're all wiped out, but their weapons are scattered about in the base. The chainsaw can make sense, because it could be a construction tool in areas of the base that needed expansion (and a chainsaw is cheaper than a fusion cutter). What counted was that the Doom weapons were FUN to use and they were.

Half life's weapons are just Doom weapon copies in different clothing really, and imho alien weapons are cheesy as FUCK, because how the fuck are you supposed to know how to use them? These things are unlike the weapons that you're trained in using, they do not have a trigger, they do not have a reload mechanism, how the fuck are you gonna figure 'em out. And it's also quite obvious that the alien weapons were MADE for the aliens to use - humans can't use them because they're so fundamentally different, so THEY are the weapons that don't make sense. Same goes for demon weapons (that's why I hate some of the ideas in the Doom bible about including these claw weapons, because they're not designed for human hands), so I'd get extremely disappointed and pissed if I see a single demon weapon, because THAT kills all believability.

About the pistol being too weak - so far we have only seen it being used against undead zombies, commandos, imps, pinkys, Hell knights (all of which are fairly tough), but we haven't seen them against the really weak enemies like the possessed shotgun troops and the possessed marines, because they were not included in the alpha.
Keep in mind that the undead zombies goes under the category of "new enemies", they're not the new zombiemen (troopers with pistols) - they have been made tough enough to suck up at least five rounds from the pistol to make up for their lack of speed. I'm confident that when we face possessed troops in the final game, they'll turn out to be so weak that you can take them down with 2-3 bullets, making the pistol seem a little more powerful.

If the pistol gets just a little more powerful than it is now, then the undead zombies will become much too easy (they're already laughably easy, even when only using the pistol). As for the claims that the shotgun is too powerful: Yes, it's too powerful compared to the pistol by modern standards, but you're AGAIN forgetting that it's a futuristic shotgun, which could likely have a much more advanced firing system and more powerful ammo, which makes the Doom shotgun a formidably powerful weapon compared to "wimpy" modern shotguns.
So I think that the weapons are powerful enough, both pistol, shotgun and machinegun.

dsm said:

Same goes for demon weapons (that's why I hate some of the ideas in the Doom bible about including these claw weapons, because they're not designed for human hands), so I'd get extremely disappointed and pissed if I see a single demon weapon, because THAT kills all believability.

<DON'T READ THIS>
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One of the files in Doom III's maps has a list with all the weapons.
This file mentions a 'Soulcube'. That seems like a Demonic weapon to me.
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</DON'T READ THIS>

Disorder said:

<DON'T READ THIS>
.
.
.
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One of the files in Doom III's maps has a list with all the weapons.
This file mentions a 'Soulcube'. That seems like a Demonic weapon to me.
.
.
.
.
</DON'T READ THIS>

Lol.
Well, there's a reason why it didn't end up in the final game wasn't there? :-)

dsm said:

Lol.
Well, there's a reason why it didn't end up in the final game wasn't there? :-)

Well, I hope it's not gonna end up in this game either, or it has to be a really cool weapon, which I doubt.
I want to use UAC-weapons only.