RC: Lost civilization, episode 1. Feedback appreciated!

@Jaska Very nice seeing you incorporating user feedback to further polish your mapset. Any chance to update the download link with the new version of the WAD, the one with all those fixes?

1 hour ago, Wanderer said:

@Jaska Very nice seeing you incorporating user feedback to further polish your mapset. Any chance to update the download link with the new version of the WAD, the one with all those fixes?

Hope all are fixed now! Link updated to the 1st post.

Here are FDAs for the last 2 maps, now using v8: joi_lstcv8_fdas_part2.zip

Really enjoyed these maps as well :)  I think I found a couple things that might be bugs:

- The chandeliers in the final room block the player in PrBoom+ complevel 9

- There are some extra midis in unused mapslots (presumably leftover from when it was more than episode 1)

A nitpick about chainsaws: I don't really like them, unless the gameplay is really tailored to it. If I already have a berserk, I definitely don't want to pick it up. Even if I don't have a berserk, I'll usually leave it unless the map is obviously going to be very stingy with ammo. I do appreciate chainsaws as consolation prizes in secrets, and it seems like that's what you're going for, but you're also generous with berserks, so sometimes I had to try (sometimes unsuccessfully) to avoid the chainsaw while trying to pick up the stuff around it. I think it'd be better if they were easier to avoid. :)

23 hours ago, Benjogami said:

Here are FDAs for the last 2 maps, now using v8: joi_lstcv8_fdas_part2.zip

 

Really enjoyed these maps as well :)  I think I found a couple things that might be bugs:

 

- The chandeliers in the final room block the player in PrBoom+ complevel 9

- There are some extra midis in unused mapslots (presumably leftover from when it was more than episode 1)

 

A nitpick about chainsaws: I don't really like them, unless the gameplay is really tailored to it. If I already have a berserk, I definitely don't want to pick it up. Even if I don't have a berserk, I'll usually leave it unless the map is obviously going to be very stingy with ammo. I do appreciate chainsaws as consolation prizes in secrets, and it seems like that's what you're going for, but you're also generous with berserks, so sometimes I had to try (sometimes unsuccessfully) to avoid the chainsaw while trying to pick up the stuff around it. I think it'd be better if they were easier to avoid. :)

-Going to change or remove those chandeliers. Keeping them now because they doesn't affect gameplay.

-Extra midis are kind of placeholders now.

I saw a bug on your video so I updated the wad & link. You avoided one encounter by going on a path that I didn't notice so you missed a trigger linedef.

I don't like chainsaw either but I've put it to maps because.. I don't know. Chainsaws are supposed to be in secrets in doom :D

I'm glad you liked the maps :) It was nice to see that you didn't get too lost on the forest.

Some feedback after playing on coop, 3 players, UV, using Zandronum:

• quite laggy, too much stuff visible on the screen
• some levels (especially at the beginning) have too few enemies
• every level has lack of ammo
• possible to get stuck in the bridges in Mountain Pass

In Lost in the Forest this area (screenshot) didn't have any enemies:

And to end on a more positive note: Everyone was extremely impressed with the level design and visual style and we stopped at multiple spots to admire the views and to discuss how some parts were done.

*has been quietly Following this thread for a while now*

Hi Jaska, this is an absolute beast of a set and I can't wait for the finished product. A true testament to how beautiful and scenic Doom maps can be given the right treatment.

...I only request that you, um, find an alternative source for the MIDI songs, haha.

I don't have a problem with my MIDIs being used - I have them online specifically so that folks can use them for anything - but here I don't think the songs of mine you've chosen do these absolutely spellbinding maps any justice whatsoever. Music makes the maps in many cases, I feel, and maps of this high caliber deserve a really solid soundtrack. Not stuff by me from before 2011 and beforehand. :P (Okay, MAP01 and MAP02's current tracks get a pass.)

The MIDI works of Bjorn Lynne are second-to-none in providing tranquil but melancholic atmosphere, and conveniently, the names of a lot of the tracks listed on this page actually cover your maps' themes/settings pretty efficiently:

MAP01: A Jetty on the Lake

MAP02: Return to Witchwood

MAP03: Stranger on a Hill

MAP04: Exploration

MAP05: The Fairy Woods

MAP06: Medieval Banquet

This is just an example of what you can use, although I've verified that these particular tracks do "feel" right to me whilst playing the respective maps.

Just popped into the thread to chime in with that piece of feedback/concern. Best regards with the rest of this set. I just really hope to see "Farmlands" and "Downtown" make a comeback, as those maps were (and still are) some of the most breathtaking that I'd ever laid eyes on when I played beta 4. When I see the map count of a project fluctuate up and down, I do tend to get a smidgen concerned that the maps are in a state of being either outmoded or endlessly refined, and I've seen with other very promising projects like Demon Eclipse/Hell-Forged that sometimes this can provoke an endless cycle of redevelopment. I hope that's not what's happening here, and I'm really excited to hear more from you. 👍

@SP_FACE1

Nice to hear feedback from MP also.

-Most of the maps lag for me too but I thought most have quite new hardware so that wouldn't be a problem. And I don't want to compromise my vision to framerate. Maybe lag is caused by the (over)use of middletextures on vegetation. I've always hated limitations on mapping. Like 800 polygons on view in quake 2 and something like that. I erroneously thought that I could map without any limitations on good old doom, heh. BTW what would be acceptable "max" limit for linedefs on one view? Or what is the metrics used in doom anyway.

-I'll add more enemies and ammo on future release. It's another story balance and add ammo for coop than to single player. Not much experience on that.

-I think I fixed the bridge on version 8 or 9. Trigger linedefs were propably too close to each other. Distance less than 16. At least I couldn't get stuck there myself on prboom.

@Jimmy Whaat, your MIDIs are great :) I respect your work and vision so I can change the MIDIs as you suggested and put you in the credits on wadinfo (as you already are). Bjorn Lynne's MIDIs are also good. I'll see if I still keep map01's MIDI.

Farmlands and downtown are going to be back in the set. I'm going to change farmlands a bit but I think downtown is quite fine as it is now. I've had the same fear of endless cycles myself, heh.

Thanks for the feedback.

I played on an 3 year old i3 laptop. I didn't have much lag on single player with GZDooM but on multiplayer Zandronum there was considerable lag. My friends played on more powerful computers than mine and they said they experienced a lot of lag too. I'm not that familiar on the limits in DooM. One of the friends I played with works in the game industry and he just pointed out that there are not enough lines that block the view and you can see too much which causes the lag.

The bridge bug happened only on multiplayer. We were running simultaneously on a bridge and the players that were running behind the first player got stuck in the bridge. I guess this is an issue in general with this kind of bridge type? I remember encountering it before on other maps with coop but never got stuck inside the bridge.

So to summarize, all my feedback was for coop. The single player experience was great even on the betas I tested last year.

Got around to finishing it. Very impressed with this map cluster overall.

Lost in the Forrest worked well as a penultimate map for this cluster. It's very long, very confusing and quite tricky. I particularly liked the part where you have to jump into a beach with lots of big rocks all around (knowing full well you can't climb back out of it quickly, so it's probably a trap) and right on cue, you get swarmed by Demons from all sides in a hectic battle.

Good use of light contrast, which works well both for variety and for atmosphere (the forresty areas have a lot of dark nooks and crannies, but plenty of skylight shining through the forrest roof).

I might nitpick that it had perhaps one soulsphere and megaarmor too many. The forrest does a good job at gradually wearing away your health and armor and the aforementioned horde ambush can certainly take big chunks out of you as well, yet despite this, I finished the map with max health and armor and with one soulsphere and megaarmor to spare (and keep in mind I'm pretty rusty at classic Doom these days).

Had the wad contained a succession of equally long and confusing maps, I'd probably have become fed up with "Lost in the Forrest", but you managed to keep it that one confusing and lengthy map flanked by straightforward, more regular-length maps, so it's all right.

"The Castle" is pretty epic looking and it starts out really well with an impressive all-out battle where you don't really have a true safe spot since enemies can come from behind as well, unfortunately, it loses steam and becomes rather too easy afterwards (no really nasty traps or encounters once the Big Opening Battle peters out) and I feel that giving the player the BFG is a little pointless since you really don't need it (there was one Archvile encounter where I used it and I could just as easily have used rockets) and I feel it's too generous with Cells. Maybe too generous with ammo in general (I like having an excuse to use the berserk fist or the chainsaw to "conserve ammo").

I also feel the map ends rather abruptly with teleporting you to the "Thanks for Playing" room (though I like the ending room itself).

Well, whatever beef I had with the pistol/chaingun sounds, I definitely don't have with the plasma gun sound, because it's superb. Feels great.

@SP_FACE1

I have intel i5 2,6ghz cpu & hd4000 graphics. Maps are playable but framerate isn't very good. Yes, maps are too open so basically everything gets rendered on some cases. Yes, it is quite impossible to get that bridge to work on multiplayer.. Or I should look on other wads how those are implemented when multiplayer is targeted. Does anyone know where to look at?  But it did fail randomly on singleplayer too. I also have hopefully fixed that bug of empty area on "lost in the forest" map on version 9. You could miss the last encounter by dropping into the water and teleporting up.

@dsm

I was also thinking if the forest would be too long. At least I didn't include the sawmill part to that too as I originally thought, heh. That will be included in some future map.

I have to figure out how to make the ending of the castle-map more interesting. Big open area doesn't leave too much options without being the same as in the beginning. Maybe I should make the interioirs more bigger / longer. I've already removed BFG on the newest version (on UV). There may be too many cells though.

Good call on not including the sawmill in "Lost in the Forrest", even though a sawmill sounds like a nice location. Looking forward to seeing it in a future build :)

I wouldn't recommend making the map shorter than it is now because some people like lengthy maps and you should try to have a little bit of everything.

The only suggestion for improving the castle I can think of as of now is to maybe include some teleportation traps once inside the castle where you teleport monsters to multiple locations around the player, so as to heighten the confusion element and make the player uncertain which direction the most dangerous enemies are coming from (carefully selecting the type of monsters to teleporting in is key here) - ideally something that catches the player in the open, but without entirely depriving the player of possible cover.

This is a really, really lovely set of maps. Beautiful to look at and fun to run around in, with maps 1, 2 and 6 being the definite highlights for me. I love the realistic (or semi-realistic) aesthetic, which you've pulled off amazingly well in a game that doesn't usually lend itself particularly well to realism. And I am in awe of the intricate and inviting landscapes and imposing vistas you've managed to create despite the limitations of the Doom engine. I'm not usually a fan of large Doom maps, and I often find open/nonlinear layouts confusing and frustrating, but these maps -- in particular maps 1, 2 and 6 (and, to a lesser extent, 3) -- are great examples of how to do open and nonlinear layouts and gameplay right. Despite the complexity and multiple route choices, progression was for the most part fairly clear. And even when I did get lost (which happened rarely and usually didn't last long -- with perhaps once exception: see below) and had to search around for the way forward, the believable setting made it feel like part of an adventure, rather than a chore.

I'm glad you chose to release these six maps as a shorter episode first, as I usually find 32-map megawads fatiguing and will often quit after the first few maps, or just not bother downloading in the first place. This, for me, is a perfect size for an episode. I also like the fact that the maps are not overly hard. I didn't find them easy by any means, and there were spots where I died repeatedly, but they were doable and almost never felt unfair. I'm a casual Doom player, and so many Doom maps are far too hard for me even on the lowest difficulty setting.

Played on HNTR (I think; I forgot to make a note of it. But it was either that or ITYTD as I never play on anything higher), using PrBoom+. All of the maps ran perfectly fine on my fairly crappy laptop. I seemed to experience a little bit of slowdown on the second map, but it was really hardly noticeable.

I'm not a fan of the new sounds, though -- in particular the new pistol and shotgun sounds, which I actually found to be a little grating. They bothered me less over time, especially once I got hold of the DBS and only heard the replacement shotgun sound when fired at by shotgun zombies. It's a minor criticism and certainly not something that stopped me from enjoying the maps, but I felt it was an unnecessary addition.

A few more words on each of the maps:

MAP01

MAP02
 

MAP03
 

MAP04
 

MAP05
 

MAP06

I hope I didn't ramble too much.

17 minutes ago, hedgehog said:

...especially once I got hold of the DBS and only heard the replacement shotgun sound when fired at by shotgun zombies.

You don't use the shotgun at all if you have a super shotgun!!?? Words like knives straight to my heart! But yeah, one of my only complaints about these maps is the sounds.

I forgot to mention one thing I considered pretty cool in Map05: when you struggle through the forrest maze, you can see the high ground (sometimes Lost Souls come at you from these areas) and you tend to think that it's probably inaccessible, then when you eventually do clear the maze, you unlock a gate that leads you right up to those areas where you can look down at the gloomy maze below. I found this pretty satisfying and very cleverly designed.

These are some of the most immersive Doom maps I have ever played, I usually prefer the more abstract style of mapping but I was in awe half the time looking at some of the set pieces you have made. I think what I love most is the fact that there is always something hidden in ever nook and cranny, always rewarding the player for exploring no matter what. It's a shame Doom doesn't have enough items so as to keep the rewards less repetitive, no that you could help that at all. The game play while tough is not impossible by any stretch, in fact very fair 99% of the time, yet always feels deadly. I don't have anything much to say about that, I just can't wait to play what you make next!

My only criticism was the new sounds, which i'm all for but you can tell they all came from different sources and it causes them all not to gel properly. For example fire the shot gun then fire the DBS, the frequency content is totally different as well as amplitude and I actually found that to be immersion breaking. This was pretty much the same with all the new additions, that all sounded out of place in context with each other.

Other than that, Cacoward worthy for sure!

@hedgehog

Thanks for very detailed feedback!

I'll really have to think about the sound replacements.

Map02: I removed some monsters on easy-skill.
Map03: When you arrive the level and look at the sea you don't see the pyramids. They appear when you cross the bridge. It was to surprise the player a bit. The purpose was to introduce them and use them on later map / maps. I'm not quite sure if I do pyramid-themed map anymore. At least it hasn't progressed in an year. There can be multiple keys in other maps too. That is to get more nonlinearity.

Map05: I'm planning to add more landmarks. Not sure yet what kind of.

Map06: Fixed texture alignment. I have to think something to the mastermind battle. Position behind the fence was to only add a little feel of danger and then later teleport it to the middle. The ending wasn't designed in the best way. I just hadn't a good idea for it.

@dsm At first I thought to add enemies on the upper part also but when testing the map I felt better to leave it empty. It's kind of small puzzle where you don't quite know where to go but always arrive to the right spot. I think it works nice like that. At least if you don't fall.

@Crunchynut44: Yeah, rewarding is difficult with these items. Balancing secrets has been also surprisingly difficult. If you find all secrets you get maybe too much. And you should be able to finish the map without finding one..

Finally got around to finishing this, and I thought it was great! This is one of the best wads I've played in recent memory, actually. I'm a big fan of real-world environments in Doom, and I thought both the indoor and outdoor areas were really well done. It has a really nice sense of scale.

I'm no gameplay expert, but it seemed well-balanced to me (I played on HMP.) I was a little low on plasma ammo, but it didn't seem unfair. I especially like how you can see into secret areas and locked areas you can't get to yet, but you can work out where to go by looking at the map.

I couldn't find the exit switch in the last room of MAP06 at first. I thought I was just stuck in the room and I was disappointed that I couldn't see the intermission screen. (I was also seeing a graphics glitch where the sky texture tiled vertically, but it went away after I got the latest version of GZDoom.)

Nice work. It makes me want to make my own map with these textures.

Thanks @komojo

You can search for more textures like this on my texture credits:

        "Credits (music): Jimmy
        Credits (textures):  
              https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/graphics/rtp
              tenebrae.wad
              -Realm667 Texture Stock
                -Textures.wad
                -Blood
                -Duke Nukem 3D
                -Shadow Warrior
              
              Stonghold.pk3
              Valve.wad
              DoomPotpourri.wad
              Community chest 4: cc4-tex.wad, Resource Wad
              Doom3 textures:
              https://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/92309-doom-3-textures-for-doom/
              http://www.realm667.com/index.php/en/texture-stock-mainmenu-152-97360/doom-style-mainmenu-153-87237
              www.realm667.com/index.php/en/downloads/texture-stock/987-soldier-of-fortune/file
              NiGHTMARE
              Ghostbusters Doom Tex's
              Cage's Texture Pack, cage_tex.wad
              Captain Toenail for urn
              Omegalore for doomsky
              Mechadon (skies etc.)
              Hellcore 2.0
              https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/g-i/hc20
              Eradrop (skies)
              Viggles
              http://thief.washboardabs.net/textures/
              Cybermage textures
              http://realm667.com/index.php/en/forum-board/texture-stock/536-submission-cybermage-textures
              Killing Time:
              https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=52113
              
              Epic 2
              https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/epic2
              
              +Some own textures. They start with ji_. Don't tile (yet).
              Also some modifications which I can't remember. At least some
              of those bridge textures."

I gave some quick tries to the maps, as I told you before the atmosphere is incredible, all the detailing and such make an unique theme in Doom or non-ZDoom wads, no real problems there except for the chandeliers in the very last room of map 06, which infinite height the player. About monsters, I only had troubles in map 05, died a couple of times at the start due to shotgun attrition, then the cave maze was indeed a maze, hard to keep to track of things and also former humans peeking from dark corners. Nothing aggravating. A thing to consider is block lines, many of the enemies used as turrets can be pushed off the platforms, like the viles on platforms. For the SMM there I'd place more enemies to teleport after the YK, like mancs/zombies and revs from a distance, I think its initial position is a clear sign that you're not supposed to kill her while it's there, but she can still snipe you in the houses. The cyberdemon is in a harder position though, it can be pushed and get stuck on a border (that's how I found him), but block lines would forbid him to wander around... heh, nevermind, it's fine :P

Thanks @galileo31dos01 ! I added monster blocking lines to some maps. Changed already cyber's platform to the newest version.

just finished it, think its great.  i know seen them mountain village before, keep it up want to see more.

finished L.C. last nite...FANTASTIC!!!  I thought the shotgun sound was realistic. more!!!!!

I recorded an FDA of each map for you.

Jaska-Demos

Recorded in PRBoom+ 2.5.1.5, complevel 17, UV.

Great maps, just noticed a few misaligned textures here and there.

MAP05 was pretty tough early on with all the hitscanners, but once that hurtle was overtaken, the map leveled out a bit in difficulty.

On 8/3/2018 at 12:24 AM, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

I recorded an FDA of each map for you.

Jaska-Demos

Recorded in PRBoom+ 2.5.1.5, complevel 17, UV.

Great maps, just noticed a few misaligned textures here and there.

MAP05 was pretty tough early on with all the hitscanners, but once that hurtle was overtaken, the map leveled out a bit in difficulty.

Thanks! Watched them. Nice playing. You almost found all the secrets, congrats!

Recorded some FDAs on skill 3 for maps 1,5, and 6.  PrBoom+  -complevel 9  Used latest version 9 of the wad.

Finished map 1 with 1 death.  I spent an hour on a map that probably takes 20 minutes for a normal player.  It was an enjoyable hour.  Did encounter a thing in my recording where a cacodemon gets pushed all the way to the border of the map but I just moved on and did other stuff while it drifted away.  Hidden keys opening up optional areas is fun.

Nitpicks and possible bugs: In the area accessed by the yellow key, the door on the upper level does not open from the inside.  The horde that warps in around the time the blue key is picked up is laughably ineffective.  In my demo, I mull around at the top of the lift looking for an angle to splatter something with rockets from above.  A few flying monsters may be in order here.

It's easier to talk about nitpicks because the list is so short relative to the list of good things about the map.  I'm happy with the difficulty as it is.  The effort in visuals also shines through in creating that mix of realistic and abstract and the breezy gameplay completements the setting allowing one to slow down and admire the work that went into this.

Map 5: Made a few attempts that don't get very far so not much to say about this yet.

Map 6: Liked this outing.  Used the cyberdemon to provoke infights to soften it up.  There's an interesting balance of pushing further into new territory for access to resources which in turn awakens more monsters.  My journey got cut short by a bit of carelessness which you can witness at the end of the demo.  I was so discouraged then that I gave up without further attempts though I did go back and beat this unrecorded.  Secret hunting and finding is really fun here.

lostcivfda_cnr.zip

On 9/24/2018 at 7:57 AM, Crusader No Regret said:

Recorded some FDAs on skill 3 for maps 1,5, and 6.  PrBoom+  -complevel 9  Used latest version 9 of the wad.

 

Finished map 1 with 1 death.  I spent an hour on a map that probably takes 20 minutes for a normal player.  It was an enjoyable hour.  Did encounter a thing in my recording where a cacodemon gets pushed all the way to the border of the map but I just moved on and did other stuff while it drifted away.  Hidden keys opening up optional areas is fun.

 

Nitpicks and possible bugs: In the area accessed by the yellow key, the door on the upper level does not open from the inside.  The horde that warps in around the time the blue key is picked up is laughably ineffective.  In my demo, I mull around at the top of the lift looking for an angle to splatter something with rockets from above.  A few flying monsters may be in order here.

 

It's easier to talk about nitpicks because the list is so short relative to the list of good things about the map.  I'm happy with the difficulty as it is.  The effort in visuals also shines through in creating that mix of realistic and abstract and the breezy gameplay completements the setting allowing one to slow down and admire the work that went into this.

 

Map 5: Made a few attempts that don't get very far so not much to say about this yet.

 

Map 6: Liked this outing.  Used the cyberdemon to provoke infights to soften it up.  There's an interesting balance of pushing further into new territory for access to resources which in turn awakens more monsters.  My journey got cut short by a bit of carelessness which you can witness at the end of the demo.  I was so discouraged then that I gave up without further attempts though I did go back and beat this unrecorded.  Secret hunting and finding is really fun here.

lostcivfda_cnr.zip

Thanks for the feedback and playing!

Map01: fixed issue with door on future releases. Added an arachnotron also to skill3. Also added flying monsters, a good idea.

You seem to use infighting quite patiently :)

So fun! I love that it's not too difficult and monsters don't teleport in all the time. Wonderful setting and detail. Some monsters bunched at one point, but I don't think my stupid computer recorded it; sometimes my recordings just disappear inexplicably. Windoze..... 

I may try again to make a screen recording, but it won't have the FDA factor anymore :( I got a few good surprise from the bunching monsters when I took a lift back up to the ridge towards the end of the map (the ridge that leads to the bungalows). I guess I could have just recorded a .lmp, but then I can't record my commentary and feedback as I'm playing.