How many more maps would you have released if you lowered your standards a bit?

For the most part quantity is unimportant as no one person will be able to play all the content that exists outside of extreme circumstances or determined life goal. If you have learned all you can from your unreleased maps you need to finish them up and put them out

Fewer, higher quality releases is the way to go

What I'm seeing here is that the real problem is that you start new things before others are finished. I saw this dangerous trap and developed a strong discipline to push things to the finish line hard so they get done and out there before I have time to let it sit

Full maps? Zero. Anything I don't finish is usually the result of mapper's block, meaning I have a strong start and literally no idea where to go with it.

This PS1 project I'm working on is the most maps I've had going at once. Luckily, I have an excuse to release lots of small, quick maps this time, so hopefully I don't run out of steam on any of these.

appreciate seeing everyone's thoughts so far. looks like a lot of folks are in the same boat!

48 minutes ago, Pinchy said:

What I'm seeing here is that the real problem is that you start new things before others are finished. I saw this dangerous trap and developed a strong discipline to push things to the finish line hard so they get done and out there before I have time to let it sit

I definitely wouldn't disagree that this could be a big part of the issue, for me at least. however, I think the main reason I have been able to make so many basically-complete maps lately is precisely because I don't force myself to finish a map before starting a new one. if I don't feel like finishing that tech map today, but I'm feeling inspired to make a hell map, then I let myself do that and follow today's inspiration. without this mindset, I found it really hard for me to be as productive as I am now, even if I still am striving for ever-distant standard of quality

10 hours ago, joepallai said:

This is why I think things like coffee break and demonfear are genius.   They're bite-sized maps of awesomeness.   I'd love to be able to get to point where I'm okay making a small map again.  

yeah I think striving for something like this - bite-sized maps that you (the mapper) can complete in a reasonable amount of time, but not necessarily with the same roughness as speedmaps - might be the cure for me, or at least a stepping stone. if everyone took their unfinished dream project and downsized it by 50% or 75% (either in terms of map quantity or size), would it be complete by now? for me the answer is definitely yes, and I would be able to do so without sacrificing the integrity of my vision of the project. so... I guess I ought to do that, otherwise it's going to be another few years before I can get these maps out the door, and I don't want to wait that long

For me, roughly the same amount. Most the maps I binned were replaced by a better one. So I'd have the same amount of released maps but the better maps wouldn't exist.

Nearly all of them TBH.

The major fault was that've I always treated the desire of my heart way better than just a little bit rational thinking behind whether the player would enjoy my maps or not - but it doesn't mean the latter didn't ensue as I was nearing completion and tell me that the finished product may seem impeccable in terms of looks, but plays like total trash. Then it would also add that the visuals needed quite a tad of touch-ups as well.

So much for mapping designer-wise and not gameplay-wise. Currently I am working on a perception overhaul.

I would of released a lot of new maps and probably a tc.

I've got 2 plutonia maps sat around that just need enemy/weapon placement from a year ago.

It's hard to imagine making any more maps than what has been released up to this point. For me it helps that my vision for what makes Doom what it is was set by the IWADs for many years. I played Ultimate Doom, Doom II and Doom 64 since the 90's and had never played any maps outside of that until late 2009 when I played Final Doom for the first time, which was shortly followed up with a lot of PWADs/Megawads from the top 100 list over the years. So I still hold that classic, bare-bones detail to be pure Doom if the gameplay flows playfully, and to some extent I also find myself more convinced by it if it feels like a continuation of that style. Ironically, I found limit-removing maps difficult to create for many years because I felt intimidated by all of the high-detail maps people were releasing at the time. I felt like I didn't really have an excuse for making something that was limit-removing without going all the way up there in detail, so I found the confines of vanilla mapping much more liberating since I knew it actually had its limits and most of my maps at the time seemed to work just fine under those limits.

Over the years I think it was becoming too conscious of different mapping philosophies that sort of jaded the experience for me, outside of having played dozens of megawads and PWADs which also brought me to a point where I wasn't really sure I had any more agreeable ideas that were worth pursuing. I was satisfied with Eternally Yours being my last effort, and I intended to move on to other things in life and wasn't expecting I would ever return to Doom mapping again. It was when 2016 came along and John Romero released those new levels of his which brought back much unexpected motivation, not only for playing Doom but for creating new levels. I think it was a good thing that I was away for many years though since I felt that a lot of what was loading me down by the start of 2012 was largely gone, and I wasn't connected at all with the community or aware of what was happening in it for a while. So I felt like I only had myself to please, and it brought back that playfulness I felt from when I began with my Doom mapping curiosity.

As far as the actual projects go, I think Scarlet Echoes is the only one I have never completed, because while it was an ambitious idea similar to Paul Schmitz' Artifact I felt it was this gigantic map that would make up an island over the course of maybe five or six maps, and it just didn't sound like something I would want to come back to very often. I created maps that I often return to and play with once in a while; even my oldest efforts in Doom Core and Reverie are nostalgic to revisit and they're easy to pick up and play. I have to believe the idea is convincing enough to create something I wish I could play, and I also want to keep doing something new to keep things fresh. Almost everything I made back then was for vanilla ports, but I became more accustomed and welcoming to working with limit-removing and Boom maps when I started Oceanside, which was a very personal project since it was based on my hometown. It's one of my favorite things I've done which I didn't think I would be able to say all these years after my last effort, but it is those kind of ideas that are really worth the effort.

Everybody has something different they take away from the mapping experience. For me I actually really enjoy creating maps and either listening to music or playing a movie in the background while it is happening. Sometimes I like to see how much I can get done before an album or movie is over, and sometimes it isn't very much, but even a little effort to move forward is still further than where you were yesterday. The other part of it for me is the art of creating map layouts, which has always been one of my favorite aspects. Sometimes I just imagine all kinds of grid shapes in my mind and I try to figure out what that might look like in-game. I remember wanting to create something that had a diagonal layout similar to Plutonia's Ghost Town and created this from Reverie MAP28 (and yes I know I've used this example before):

Overall, I think the most important question you can ask yourself is just how excited are you to play anything Doom-related? Are there any ideas for projects that you wish could exist, or places you wish you could visit within the confines of a map editor? That was part of what got me excited to start a project like Oceanside, and I have other ideas I'd really like to play around with since it involves exploring different territories I haven't been through before. Playing around with Boom's effects or tinkering with DeHackEd have also been really interesting, there's so much out there that can bring out that excitement and playfulness and I always try to keep things in a place where it stays that was as opposed to any outside pressure or expectations from other people. I don't want to become too concerned with whether a ceiling area is 'too bare' or not; to be honest I will probably never notice it in my own playthrough, so I'm okay with leaving it out. You can probably let more slide than you think without being disrespectful of feedback, and sometimes people do have better ideas for my maps than I do. Ultimately I think the fun you have in creating a map will always be reflected in the maps themselves, so it'll work itself out.

I am finding that i cannot bring myself to release (or even complete) solo efforts because i judge everything against the maps made by others - and this is pretty much exclusively work that i hold in the highest regard. It sucks. With communal projects i feel that the overall wad quality relies much less upon my specific work so can much more easily let things slide and get maps completed and contributed to whatever the project may be.

So, i just stop bothering working on lots of things i actually want to make fairly early in development, which i know is bad because a lot of maps don't really come together until they are pretty close to being complete. It's just bridging that gap that is the problem and i can't really find a way around that mentality right now. While my 'fully completed maps vs releases' percentage is actually very good, a lot of things fall by the wayside at like 10% completion and are just sat on the hard disk wasting space.

I haven't modded too much personally, and out of maybe a small handful that I have made in the last year, I've released one. My issue is figuring out what style I wanna develop, and once I get it, it.... gets messy, so most of them get scratched from fast burnout &/o lack of personal polish.

Very, very few.  It's gonna sound like an "up my own ass" answer, but I put a ton of work into every map I start working on, and usually when I start working on something it's because I have a plan that's fully fleshed out and just needs to be realized.  Almost none just get outright scrapped.  I think I have 5, maybe 6 that I deemed too shitty to release.  But even those got cannibalized, or parts used in other maps.

They're all Doomsday/Jdoom maps, btw.  I've pretty much forgotten how to play them on that platform.

I tend to create about nine failed maps while honing an idea I have until I'm ready to really make the map that'll contain it properly. probably have also tried to create my own Doom 1 episode enough times that I could make an episode out of abandoned E2M1s. but frankly I know in my heart that I'm a way better musician than I am a mapper and giving life to other superior mappers' works feels more satisfying in teh end

made my first map around '99. it was titled "two amazing square rooms connected by rectangular hallway". incidentally, this is my last map too, and the best i ever able to design. but world is not ready for such huge release yet.

On 8/7/2018 at 2:53 AM, joepallai said:

Initially it's great, things are flowing and everything is exciting; then the magic wears off and you realize that you just went back to your ex. and all the old problems are still there.

For me it's kindof the reverse, where I start out for weeks/months just aimless and slogging through a map, and then towards the latter half when I feel like I have a picture of how this is going to turn out, there is a flurry of activity and "ideas flowing"

Probably twice more but I'll be only half as satisfied with them. If I get back to mapping I would likely just work on my existing maps which desperately needs more lighting variation according to feedback.

I've got probably close to twenty finished maps that I made around and after 2011 when I first started mapping. I was around twelve years old at the time and fully intended to create full 32 map MEGAWAD and release it. Thankfully I had no idea how to compile maps together into a single PWAD at the time, and looking back at them I now know that those maps are not fit for public consumption. I might revisit them and recycle some of their ideas at some point though.

Most of my more recent maps (ones that I would have started making during and after 2016) are meant to become part of a public release at some point in the distant future, but I haven't had the time or the motivation to work on more than one map at a time and often take months long breaks from mapping.

I have released some maps in community projects now, at least. Most of these maps were completely restarted multiple times, though (as in, I'd start mapping only to find that I hated what I was making half an hour later, and delete everything and start again). Actually, the map that I contributed to XUMP was originally a test map that I made to familiarize myself with HeXen's features, but I ended up submitting and let HexenMapper finish it up for me after twenty attempts of realizing a specific idea failed to yield desirable results.

Probably a lot more. There was a point where I started a lot of maps but I only ever released four (my old ZDoom map and a my submissions to DWMP '14, DUMP 3 2, and JOM 4), and the only one that isn't totally shitty is the JOM 4 one. It's just that there's such a high standard after nearly a quarter century of mapping that I don't really feel like I can keep up, having joined this community in 2013. Some of you have been mapping since before I was even born, since the days of DEU even. It feels like comparing Tesla or Einstein to some elementary schooler who built a baking soda volcano for his science project.

3 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

Probably a lot more. There was a point where I started a lot of maps but I only ever released four (my old ZDoom map and a my submissions to DWMP '14, DUMP 3, and JOM 4), and the only one that isn't totally shitty is the JOM 4 one. It's just that there's such a high standard after nearly a quarter century of mapping that I don't really feel like I can keep up, having joined this community in 2013. Some of you have been mapping since before I was even born, since the days of DEU even. It feels like comparing Tesla or Einstein to some elementary schooler who built a baking soda volcano for his science project.

 

you oughtta just go for it mate! I'm sure you're way more critical of them than others would be. I haven't really followed up on any of the answers here to indicate it, but my hope was kind of that asking this question might force folks to do some introspection and motivate themselves to just be more liberal about releasing things, uninhibited by self-criticism. at least, that's what I'm hoping for myself :D

I definitely understand the sentiment though; it's really easy to get discouraged by the huge amount of quality out there these days. I think you can make a lot of growth in your skills in a short period of time though, as a lot of other members in the community the last few years have demonstrated. but even then, comparing yourself to others in any way, including rate of growth, can become a trap. is everyone else just a faster learner than me? why are they so good so fast? why do I even bother? etc. all these are things I've thought to myself, whether in regards to mapping or competitive gaming or something else entirely. I think this really highlights the need to find ways to have fun doing mapping or whatever other thing you're pursuing, because fun seems to be the best way to combat all these negative thoughts. if I allow myself to have enough fun making maps, maybe it can outweigh my desire to establish and maintain some reputation for quality, thereby allowing me to release maps with greater frequency. there also seems to be a general unwillingness in the community to do significant, periodic updates to already-released maps (or incremental releases). instead, we have the mindset that the first release has to tick all the right boxes from the get-go, which I think further prevents you from climbing up the spiral of negative thoughts.

so when I think about releasing my own maps, I'm often blocked by worries about quality, and think that most things I make don't deserve to go beyond my hard drive. but when I think about other people releasing their maps, I want them to release whatever they can and leave nothing to waste, so that I can enjoy all of it! the issue I face, then, is really about bridging the gap between what I want for others to do vs what I'm willing to do myself.

anyway, I think you (and everyone else) should just go for it @TheMightyHeracross :^)

On 10/31/2018 at 1:06 AM, Tango said:

 There also seems to be a general unwillingness in the community to do significant, periodic updates to already-released maps (or incremental releases). instead, we have the mindset that the first release has to tick all the right boxes from the get-go, which I think further prevents you from climbing up the spiral of negative thoughts.

This is something I've had on my mind for a long time concerning my own maps. I was planning to update whatever needs to be fixed and or improved on my next release(s), whenever that may be.

I have a quite a few unreleased levels. Lot's of different sized projects that need different amounts of work to get done. If I lowered my standards, I don't think I'd have released any of it. That's so hard to say for sure tho. I find it hard to get to the part where I'm finally ready to finish and get that release out the window. So many factors seem to interfere with getting project work done. I tend to also jump around from one thing to another, so I end up with too many unfinished maps.

On 10/31/2018 at 12:06 AM, Tango said:

it's really easy to get discouraged by the huge amount of quality out there these days

This is probably the key thing that gets to me. I have started a number of maps over the last few years but I never seem to get anywhere with them. Whenever I think I am getting close to finishing an area and really examine it, I can't help but compare it to maps that I have recently seen or played. I start to think "this really does not look very good..."

That said, I have recently started drawing out a bunch of small maps. My hope is that by making a couple maps with simple scopes, I can get back into it. Making them Boom compatible is also a good limitation since whenever I think of a map for ZDoom or a similar engine, I can't help but think about more complex mechanics like jumping, slopes, or portals, and those things cause a map to take a lot of extra time and effort to make.

A bunch. Probably a full map pack by now. A current project of mine started out as just a shorter set of maps in varied locations.

Then I figured out how to change sprites.

And then I figured out how to change sounds.

Then change code...

Then there's scripting. 

Basically I'm now intent on making something that I feel is complete. That's just the mind I have; don't release it until I think it's done in my view. Perfectionism can sure take its toll.